Questions about the Alesis HD24 vs. Mackie SDR for live multitracking in clubs.

[Funk-O-Meter]

I've been researching these two platforms to determine which would have the easiest working method for multitracking live shows on the fly at FOH. I'd really need some way to send the drive or files with the bands after the show without having to..

take the machine home--> backup -->convert to DAW workable format-->move to new medium--->mail off to customer.

Here's some questions about working methods involving the two:

Can these units use new 500GB+ off the shelf drives available at local big box stores?

I understand you can take the mackies' drives out and put them in an DAW and open the session (or at least import the time stamped files) and be on your way. Can you do this with the Alesis?

If not how fast does transferring files take for a 24 trk/ 90min live show from the Alesis?

Can you use a wireless dongle in the ethernet port on the Alesis to make it's FTP functions wireless?


What methods do you guys use?


Thanks in advance.

Also: I'm aware of the new converter in the XT and of the JoeCo box which is over my budget.

[mb66]

I'm familiar with the Alesis. The 10mps ethernet port is useless. It would take you half a day (literally) to download your recordings to a computer.
The only option would be to buy the Fireport, an external firewire adapter which uses proprietary software to 'see' the Alesis formatted drives and copies/converts the data (rather fast) down to the computer running the software. 30 minutes of 14-16 track 24/48 recordings (I often record bands at churches) takes less than 10 minutes to copy down. I'd guesstimate you're looking at 40 minutes or so to copy the files down. That is a LOT of data!

The largest drive I ever put in mine was 80gig. Gracious plenty for me, so I can't help you there.

Curious...It sounds like you're talking about 20-30 gigs of data for a 90 minute show. How on earth, other than an external hard drive, do you intend to give this to the band? If that's the case, pulling the drive after the show, using the Fireport (firewire) attached to a laptop to read/convert the files to an external drive (usb or firewire) would be the only way that they leave with it.

The Alesis is a great machine and has never let me down. Sound guys like all the meters too.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by mb66

The only option would be to buy the Fireport, an external firewire adapter which uses proprietary software to 'see' the Alesis formatted drives and copies/converts the data (rather fast) down to the computer running the software.

Or the free and excellent HD24tools software.

I've never used the Mackie, but have no complaints about the performance of the HD24. Done lots of live tracking with it. It's basically an "arm and press go" sort of machine.

I might be more inclined to try the JOECO BlackBox if I were to start live tracking again, but HD24s can be had so cheaply, it's hard to say no.

JoeCo - Home of the BlackBox Recorder

[memphisindie]

I've used the HD24 live to record longer shows on a 100 gig drive with no problems. Downoaded via HD24Tools in a few minutes and started working on the mix ITB.
I've had the machine for years, never screwed up a session unlike PT.

[Funk-O-Meter]

Originally Posted by mb66

Curious...It sounds like you're talking about 20-30 gigs of data for a 90 minute show. How on earth, other than an external hard drive, do you intend to give this to the band? If that's the case, pulling the drive after the show, using the Fireport (firewire) attached to a laptop to read/convert the files to an external drive (usb or firewire) would be the only way that they leave with it.

The Alesis is a great machine and has never let me down. Sound guys like all the meters too.

That's what I'm asking you guys

I need a way to send the on their way with the show so on a drive so that the whole thing is easy.

The mackie uses a format that allows the drive to be used in a daw and the files to be opened right up. So I could just send the the drive off with them. Only problem is I need to know I can use off the shelf IDE or SATA drives and that it's not limited to 30GB like used to be the case.

With the Alesis I could transfer the files onto an external via my laptop and HDtools or the fireport and send them on their way IF this could be done in 30mins or less for a 90-120 minute set. Sounds like the Alesis formated drives don't play nice in a PC DAW.

Can it be done in 30 mins?

Are the files times stamped?

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by Funk-O-Meter

Can it be done in 30 mins?

Yes.

Here's what you need:

1. HD24Tools: HD24tools
2. Caddy Bay: ViPowER. Inc
(get a FW version if you can.)

3. If you want to use SATA drives: Magic Sound SATA24

[Eric Greedy]

JoeCo - BlackBox Recorder Summary

this is what you want

[7161]

i used the alesis and no, you cant take the drive out and put it in a pc - you can, but the pc cant read the files sadly

yes the ethernet is slow. best to send them a dvd with the raw multitracks on after an all-night transfer back at base

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by Funk-O-Meter

That's what I'm asking you guys

I need a way to send the on their way with the show so on a drive so that the whole thing is easy.

The mackie uses a format that allows the drive to be used in a daw and the files to be opened right up. So I could just send the the drive off with them. Only problem is I need to know I can use off the shelf IDE or SATA drives and that it's not limited to 30GB like used to be the case.

With the Alesis I could transfer the files onto an external via my laptop and HDtools or the fireport and send them on their way IF this could be done in 30mins or less for a 90-120 minute set. Sounds like the Alesis formated drives don't play nice in a PC DAW.

Can it be done in 30 mins?

Are the files times stamped?

I'm not sure about the time stamp, but, I've never had a problem with any HD24 files.
As far as sending them on their way with a drive:
just record to one large drive and have a second large drive loaded in the other slot and copy them internally (while both are loaded in the HD24) in a few minutes. If they have access to one to download from.
Buy two drives and caddies and leave them with one. Simple, eh?

If not, still buy two drives and use the fireport or the Vipower as mentioned previously, and just copy them to a new folder on the drive you're sending.
I haven't loaded mine into any programs other than ProTools and Logic. Never had a problem with files loading out of sync. Plus with the HD24 you have BWF wav and AIFF files to choose from depending on how their DAW is set to use files, one may load faster for them.

As I say, I'm not sure about time stamped, I think they are as I have never had a problem with tracks loading where they shouldn't. It may turn every file into a contiguous file that starts at the top to keep everything in perfect sync no matter what.


Definitely get the Fireport or the Vipower unit and HD24 tools, which will turn an all night via ethernet into about 25 minutes, real life saver, seriously, whole tunes, all tracks in like maybe 4 minutes.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by 7161

i used the alesis and no, you cant take the drive out and put it in a pc - you can, but the pc cant read the files sadly

Yes you can....if you use HD24Tools. It's only a couple posts above.....^^

(You can actually use the Alesis FST/Connect software too if you have a firewire bridge with the right chipset. Don't have to use the Fireport, but it's trial and error. I used a cheapo external FW enclosure and it worked just fine. Others didn't.)

[Funk-O-Meter]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

Yes you can....if you use HD24Tools. It's only a couple posts above.....^^

(You can actually use the Alesis FST/Connect software too if you have a firewire bridge with the right chipset. Don't have to use the Fireport, but it's trial and error. I used a cheapo external FW enclosure and it worked just fine. Others didn't.)

How does this work?

Also, I know I want the JoCo but it's $2400 and out of the questions although it looks like a marvelous unit.

Originally Posted by travisbrown

Yes.

Here's what you need:

1. HD24Tools: HD24tools
2. Caddy Bay: ViPowER. Inc
(get a FW version if you can.)

3. If you want to use SATA drives: Magic Sound SATA24

So you would pull the drive out of the HD24, put it into the external caddy and transfer "through" a laptop on another external drive?

That sounds workable...

Originally Posted by travisbrown

Yes you can....if you use HD24Tools. It's only a couple posts above.....^^

(You can actually use the Alesis FST/Connect software too if you have a firewire bridge with the right chipset. Don't have to use the Fireport, but it's trial and error. I used a cheapo external FW enclosure and it worked just fine. Others didn't.)

So you can put an HD24 formated drive into a DAW PC and transfer the files to another drive for editing using HD24Tools? That sounds like a pretty easy working method.

[Funk-O-Meter]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

Yes.

Here's what you need:

1. HD24Tools: HD24tools
2. Caddy Bay: ViPowER. Inc
(get a FW version if you can.)

3. If you want to use SATA drives: Magic Sound SATA24

So you would pull the drive out of the HD24, put it into the external caddy and transfer "through" a laptop on another external drive?

That sounds workable...

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by Funk-O-Meter

So you would pull the drive out of the HD24, put it into the external caddy and transfer "through" a laptop on another external drive?

That sounds workable...

Yes. Just plug it into your computer. Start HD24Tools. Copy files to wherever you want.

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

Yes. Just plug it into your computer. Start HD24Tools. Copy files to wherever you want.

yup.

[Funk-O-Meter]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

Yes. Just plug it into your computer. Start HD24Tools. Copy files to wherever you want.

That seems a lot easier then buying Alesis' external caddy and firewire bridge device. Firewire is so picky anyway.

Would the transfer be substantially slower if the destination drive was a external USB2?

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by Funk-O-Meter

That seems a lot easier then buying Alesis' external caddy and firewire bridge device. Firewire is so picky anyway.

Would the transfer be substantially slower if the destination drive was a external USB2?

It's not any easier, just cheaper.

Not substantially slower. It's pretty much a unidirectional transfer. FW is a better protocol for large data transfers.

Firewire picky? I guess there is the odd chipset on PC that's incompatible, but never had an issue with FW ever.

[kirkhawley]

I've owned 2 new SDR's and one well-used HD24XR (or whatever it is) with Jim Williams mods. The SDR's were unreliable, spazzed out a lot, and ate hard drives like candy. The HD24 has been rock solid and a pleasure to work with. File transfer with HD24 tools is fast and easy, also somewhat flexible since you can audition the audio and select what tracks to transfer.

-Kirk

[Funk-O-Meter]

Originally Posted by kirkhawley

I've owned 2 new SDR's and one well-used HD24XR (or whatever it is) with Jim Williams mods. The SDR's were unreliable, spazzed out a lot, and ate hard drives like candy. The HD24 has been rock solid and a pleasure to work with. File transfer with HD24 tools is fast and easy, also somewhat flexible since you can audition the audio and select what tracks to transfer.

-Kirk

You say the HD24 is more reliable. How about sound quality? Can you compare the two?

I've had friends that have had problems with both units in the past.

I was most attracted to the SDR because I could send the drives off with customers without any type of transfer and they could open them right up in a DAW. Even Protools. That and they're really cheap sometimes.

[memphisindie]

I've been using the same two hard drives in mine since I bought it, when they were brand new, and I'm only using the HD24, not the XR.
The sound quality?
Recorded and mixed through the HD24:
I've used it on ex-major label artist's recordings and the response on the phone call to Memphis from the limousine in LA from the A&R guy and the artist was, "Holy shit! This thing RAAAWWWKSS!! We've been listening to this all day, 7 times in the limo! THIS is GREEEEAAAATTT!!!"

New deal signed.

Good enough for you?

[The dman]

Transfer to a pc is a no brainer with HD24 tools, the Vipowers are cheap and it works great.

[daveg62]

I also use a HD24 here, with the HDTools software and a ViPower Swaprack caddy system. I bought the usb version VP-1028LSF. Mounts right in your computer bay and comes with a short usb cable to plug into a usb port on the back of your computer. I think it was $50 shipped, but well worth it. Works great! Fast transfer. Quick swapping without unplugging anything. You should be able to buy it right from ViPower, I did just a couple months ago.

[subspace]

I have both machines. I use the SDR with a 320GB removable drive for recording 24 tracks at 88.2k. Pull the drive, stick it in the dock, and work directly with the time-stamped BWAVs. No transfer required.
You would be buying used. Buy the HD24. Limited to 12 tracks at 96k, records to a proprietary format destructively, and is finnicky about drives, it's advantage is they all work. The used road is littered with SDRs that were released before fully functional, and Mackie no longer services them. They were designed by Sydec (Sydec Digital Recorder) who Mackie bought up, then spun back off, eventually being bought again by SSL.
I use the SDR as my primary recorder, but I bought it new and had it upgraded right before Sydec left the building. The HD24 lives in a remote rig and has been rock-solid for standard sample rate live recordings.

[Funk-O-Meter]

Alright so:

Mackie SDR:

Can be bought for half what a HD24 goes for
No file transfer required to use HD's in a dAW
May have dependability issues
Uses DB25 cabling which is gonna be more expensive bringing the price closer to a used HD24.
Converters only sound real good at 96k
Can do 24 trks at 96k with a fast drive (?)
Has input patching making mixing digital and analogue inputs easy.

Alesis HD24:

Sounds great (expecially the XR)
1/4" balanced I/O is easy to cable
Reliable and still supported
Proprietary drive format requires painful file transferring to another drive before editing in a daw or sending to customers.
No 96khz analogue.
Twice as much as the SDR.
No input patching makes mixing digital and analogue inputs complicated.


Is this all accurate?

I'd love to hear some more about the sound quality and 96khz capability of the SDR.


Life is hard.

[Funk-O-Meter]

What's the "render" function on the Mackie about? Would I have to render the project before sending it off and how long does that take for a 24/96 90 min set of 20-24 tracks?

I gotta be able to hand the client an HDD with the show files on it right after the gig and send them off with it and they could later take that to any studio and get to work on it easily without format problems. I'm starting to think that's still not realistic. I guess the only way to know for sure is to buy the Mackie, the cabling and try it out.

I don't wanna have to render files for an hour or transfer files to another drive for an hour after the gig and make everybody wait while the venue's closing. I don't wanna have to take it home and spend all night changing formats and transferring from one place to another and having to find packing materials and ship the drive off. That sucks. I want simple.

If I can hit stop on a machine, immediately start transferring files to an external HDD that maybe they brought or drive that I'm supplying that I'm gonna sell them and have it done in an hour while I break down, settle up, drink a beer whatever... that'll work.

[subspace]

If you're doing live recording on the SDR, ie: 24 tracks simultaneously, rendering isn't a relevant feature. You hit stop, pull the drive out, remove it from the caddy, and hand it to the band. When they stick it in a USB/FireWire enclosure, they'll see 24 equal length BWAVs and can start working with them right off the drive. I use the Newer Tech drive dock rather than an enclosure.
When you start punching in and creating lots of small 5 second sound files that need to be placed in location, that's when you consider rendering. I simply bought Traction 2 which opens the SDR project directly with every punch-in in place and any virtual takes as alternate playlists without having to copy or process anything. From there I can select the playlist to use or clean up a punch-in before rendering into a contiguous file, which Traction is lightning fast at. It makes PT real-time bounce to disk incredibly aggravating by comparison.
The sound quality is the same as the Soundscape 24io interfaces, same converter boards. You can only use 12 digital inputs at 96k due to SMUX, tracks 13-24 will be fed by the analog inputs. 24 tracks at 96k is no problem with an off the shelf 7200rpm/16MB ATA drive.

[psilas]

@ subspace

Thanx for all this updated info on the complete incompetence of Mackie.

I still own and love the Mackie SDR and cut my teeth on it. I had no idea it could do 24 tracks at 96k, I always thought it was 12 tracks so thx for telling me that. Its always been rock solid and very stable and I'll never sell it.

However,before buying the SDR I was in the same position ie. Alesis or Mackie? I chose the Mackie. LOL, within 2 years the SDR was discontinued with no explanation given yet the Alesis is still in production.

Now Mackie continue to release some cruddy new home mixer every other week whereas the Alesis stuck with the HDR and now have a standard.

Mackie have proved to be VERY disloyal to their customers and to hear that they no longer service them has just made me even more disappointed in them. I honestly would NEVER buy anything Mackie again based on there amateur business practices.

Who the hell do we have to speak to now then in order to service or repair an SDR/MDR etc?

ps. I thought the D8B mixer was very cheap now 2nd hand. I take it Mackie no longer service/repair those either?

Screw you Mackie.

[stevenj]

Originally Posted by Funk-O-Meter

What's the "render" function on the Mackie about? Would I have to render the project before sending it off and how long does that take for a 24/96 90 min set of 20-24 tracks?

Funkometer, did you ever figure out what to do? I too am looking at the Mackie SDR24/96 vs Alesis HD24 for live recordings. I dont mind the file format of the HD24, in fact, i think its more stable then a standard FAT file system that a PC would use. The only benifit to the SDR would be that all 24 channels are at 96k. I'm not sure how important that is. I think i rather have the piece of mind that the recording will work and go with the HD24s. I'm also on a tight budget. However, if i had the money to do a backup system, then maybe the SDR would be primary, and then i might be able to pass through to the HD24 or maybe do a splitter snake into each? I might have some pre amps that i bring for some extra room mics so i'm not sure if i would just split after my preamps and go into each. Anyway, back to the debate. ... what ended up working for you? As much as I love the idea of the SDR, I think it might be more important to have something more reliable for around the same price.

The only other item i looked at was the Tascam X-48, but again, that scares me a lot because its a PC (embedded windows) inside. Also, i dont need the editing or mixing, just tracking.

[Nobilmente]

Originally Posted by Funk-O-Meter

Alright so:

Mackie SDR:

Can be bought for half what a HD24 goes for
No file transfer required to use HD's in a dAW
May have dependability issues
Uses DB25 cabling which is gonna be more expensive bringing the price closer to a used HD24.
Converters only sound real good at 96k
Can do 24 trks at 96k with a fast drive (?)
Has input patching making mixing digital and analogue inputs easy.

Alesis HD24:

Sounds great (expecially the XR)
1/4" balanced I/O is easy to cable
Reliable and still supported
Proprietary drive format requires painful file transferring to another drive before editing in a daw or sending to customers.
No 96khz analogue.
Twice as much as the SDR.
No input patching makes mixing digital and analogue inputs complicated.


Is this all accurate?

I'd love to hear some more about the sound quality and 96khz capability of the SDR.


Life is hard.

Why do a critique on the sound of the SDR, when you have not heard it? e.g. "Converters only sound good at 96kHz" - I don't get that, it just muddies the water.

[Funk-O-Meter]

Not a critique as I've not worked with either enough to be able to critique. I was only trying to sum up the comparison for myself.

I haven't gone either way yet as I've been sidetracked by other purchases and improvements at the venue I work for. Put new tops in, an XTA and just bought a Crest for FOH. I suspect I'll go the Mackie way for non-critical gigs cause I can send the drive off with the band after the last downbeat. Although ull need to have a backup somewhere. I'd still have to sell them the drive and have a stack around though.

As far the question about reliability I suggest that you will always want to have a backup machine/ format for all your important gigs. I've seen all these platforms shit the bed and fail at live gigs and I can say the same for some protools rigs so theres that. Buy two or use a laptop to go to Reaper or something cheap just in case.

What's the drive size/ATA bus limitations of the Mackie's again? Is it still easy to find the older drives?

[memphisindie]

No, here's the deal, if your customer downloads HD24 tools for free, you can copy a drive IN the HD24 and send them home with it, you keep the original. The rest is the same.