Recording Large Ensembles

[benxiwf]

Hello all...I am new to the forum and would like some suggestions for microphones to record large ensembles. I am a teacher and would like to be able to record my ensembles as well as others. My current setup is quite simple...an mbox 2 into a 27" imac using pro tools. I am considering a logic based setup but I think what I have may be fine for me..I don't currently own a stereo pair of mics, so I have been researching what to use and would appreciate the advice of some experts here. I will be recording school orchestras, wind ensembles/bands, choirs and occasionally chamber music (sometimes by more professional players). I would like to get a really good pair of stereo mics to use. I recently recorded a choir with a pair of akg 414s (an older pair..I'm not sure of all the particular versions..they had switches rather than the current button for changing patterns). Should I be looking for an omni or cardiod pair? (or something with both?) In many cases, I will probably not have time to work with the ensemble in experimenting with the best setup. I know my mic preamps are not the best as I am just using the mbox 2 right now.

I am looking to buy an very good pair of microphones, though, and am willing to spend up to around $2000 or even slightly more.

Some microphones that I am looking at:

AKG 414s
Earthworks QTC30 or QTC40
Neumann KM183 (cardiod or omni?)
How about a pair of Royers? (which ones?)
Shure KSM 141 (much cheaper)
Something else?
perhaps a mid/side setup? - seems less common...

well...that is basically what I am aware of as good choices...Looking forward to the advice..

Thanks!

[Crowdnoise]

I realize this is slightly above your price range, but look at DPA as well. They sometimes can be found within your budget.

Look at the DPA 4006TL or the regular 4006. There is a pair up on "that auction site" right now for your target price. (Not sure if linking to it is OK. Apologies to the moderator if it is not).

And let me know if you have any trouble. I'm a working engineer and definitely NOT a pro audio dealer, but I am a DPA affiliate and can help out.

[benxiwf]

thanks for the suggestion, I am not familiar with them...I see that it is omni. Is that generally preferred for this application or is it pretty much a split between cardiod and omni users?

[waxx]

i would prefer schoeps cmc with an omni if the room (hall) has the right acoustics. It's about in your budget, it's one of the industry standard for this and better doesn't exist in my opinion. DPA is a bit more clinical, altough the difference is small.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by benxiwf

Hello all...I am new to the forum and would like some suggestions for microphones to record large ensembles. I am a teacher and would like to be able to record my ensembles as well as others. My current setup is quite simple...an mbox 2 into a 27" imac using pro tools. I am considering a logic based setup but I think what I have may be fine for me..I don't currently own a stereo pair of mics, so I have been researching what to use and would appreciate the advice of some experts here. I will be recording school orchestras, wind ensembles/bands, choirs and occasionally chamber music (sometimes by more professional players). I would like to get a really good pair of stereo mics to use. I recently recorded a choir with a pair of akg 414s (an older pair..I'm not sure of all the particular versions..they had switches rather than the current button for changing patterns). Should I be looking for an omni or cardiod pair? (or something with both?) In many cases, I will probably not have time to work with the ensemble in experimenting with the best setup. I know my mic preamps are not the best as I am just using the mbox 2 right now.

I am looking to buy an very good pair of microphones, though, and am willing to spend up to around $2000 or even slightly more.

Some microphones that I am looking at:

AKG 414s
Earthworks QTC30 or QTC40
Neumann KM183 (cardiod or omni?)
How about a pair of Royers? (which ones?)
Shure KSM 141 (much cheaper)
Something else?
perhaps a mid/side setup? - seems less common...

well...that is basically what I am aware of as good choices...Looking forward to the advice..

Thanks!

Hey Buddy, there are many ways, of approaching this, many schools of thought...although there is one thing that the classical recording guys will all agree on. You need at least one pair of No compromise Omnidirectional Microphones. This would be the Gefell MK221 with Josephson C617 Bodies, Schoeps CMC62S or CMC62H, DPA 4006, 4003, Sanken CU-100k.

There are many different factors to consider when you are planning this..

What sort of an acoustic are you working with? How many people are in the ensemble? Is it a performance or a studio setting? (This will affect mic placement because of sight lines) and many other things..


So.. My reccomendation to you is to grab the following books.

Handbook of recording engineering(John Eargle)

Sound Recording(John Eargle)

The New Stereo Soundbook

The Microphone Book(John Eargle)


and refer to those, try, fail, and learn from your mistakes. There are some really great CDs that Mr. Eargle engineered while he was still living called

"The Symphonic Sound Stage"(1 and 2) , "Engineers Choice", and "the king of instruments"

these are all unique in that the liner notes go into exhaustive detail about every single piece, what microphone arrays were used, how they were used, and why they were used.




and get a pair of great omnidirectional mics....go from there.


(all of the books.cds can be found at Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & more with the exception of the new stereo soundbook which can be found @ Home

[John Willett]

My first choice would be the MKH 8040 stereoset; second choice, an MS set-up of MKH 30/40.

I would also consider a Jecklin or Schneider disk with a pair of Neumann KM 183, or (better) KK183 with KM-A or KM- D.



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[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by benxiwf

Should I be looking for an omni or cardiod pair? (or something with both?) In many cases, I will probably not have time to work with the ensemble in experimenting with the best setup.

From what you say, I would go for the most easy way to always have an acceptable result. From my experiences in similar situation (I recorded a lot of music school concerts) I would not go with omnis. With them you could have sometimes great results but more than often you will be desapointed : too much public noise, not enough focus for students who can't project correctly the sound of their instrument, not so great acoustics to record in etc.

Get a good pair of cardios (or eventually infracardio). In the price range you gave us, you will not have difficulties to find directionnal mics with great sound in the distant field (DPA, Schoeps, Sennheiser).
Then not a great mic should produce a marvelous sound from an average instrument and player...

JMM

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I would also consider a Jecklin or Schneider disk with a pair of Neumann KM 183, or (better) KK183 with KM-A

KK183 with KM-A is more flexible (and more expensive) than KM183. Is it really also better ?

[AlexK]

FWIW, the C414s are a great mic - I'm a fan of the B-XLS - immensely flexible.

For all the wonderful mics in the world, I would still want to look at close-micing some sections to give you flexibility depending on the performers you have in the pieces, and for this you're going to need a different interface.

[Nobilmente]

You may like to consider a pair of switchable microphones, like your AKG 414's. These will give you the basis of a stereo pair, or spaced omnis or Blumlein crossed figure of eights or M&S.

These would possibly be a good starting point and you would learn a lot from using them.

There are some good suggestions here too from John Willett and Teddy Ray.

One of the most important things is the hall in which you record, and the seating arrangement. Think about it in your head before you set up, it can be that logical. Go for a high ceiling and spacious room, not too much reverberation, not too little, then choose your mic set up to suit, perhaps after reading Teddy's book suggestions. You'll probably find PDF's on line too with much of the information in there.

Good luck.

[benxiwf]

Thanks all for the suggestions. The Schoeps and some others are quite above my $2000 price tag...Is it really that much better than the Neumann or Earthworks? I got one vote for the 414...would anyone else recommend this for its versatility in patterns? ...or any other mic with switchable patterns?

As far as the interface...I know that is a whole other can of worms, but I would consider upgrading to a better Pro Tools unit...I would like to have firewire or even some kind of Logic setup (seems like a more expensive route) but I think the first thing I should focus on is a good stereo mic setup.

[MichaelPatrick]

Small capsules are better starting mics because they have more predictable off-axis behavior. I recommend that you first learn to make good placement decisions with omnis and cardiods. You can't go wrong with a pair of KSM141. These omnis are real pressure microphones and they mechanically switch to cardiod. If you can't make good recordings with mics of this quality, "better" mics won't be much help. Then you'll have some cash left to upgrade your preamps and AD converter.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

KK183 with KM-A is more flexible (and more expensive) than KM183. Is it really also better ?

I was writing from an iPhone and keeping the post short.

By "better" I meant more flexible as you have extension tube options and an easy change of heads if you want to change pattern later. Also, if you want to go digital at a later date, you can swap to the KM-D module and still use the existing KK capsules.

So - by "better" I meant more flexible and more future-proof.

Sound-wise they should be the same as the capsules are the same - though the KM-A, being brand new, would have the most up-to-date electronics.

[Jim vanBergen]

If your current 414s are in good shape, why not start by using them and buy a serious preamplifier? Schoeps, Sennheisers, Gefells & DPAs are great (I own sets of all and love them) but without a real preamp, you'll miss HUGE amounts of detail. Then you can borrow or rent more mics to see what you like, while using your 414s in various patterns/configs to determine what you really want to do, and how your ensembles will sound best in the rooms they work in.

For the $$, I think the 8040s and Shure KSMs are an incredible value. For classical recording however, I often reach for the Schoeps above all else. But these are all minor details, and almost all the mics mentioned are worth consideration.

Hope this helps.

JvB

[Nobilmente]

If you were to work with your 414's, you would still have them to use as spot microphones when you expand your kit to include Schoeps, Sennheiser or Shure etc.

And if you do, you could look at one of these - as a preamp for the pair.

D.A.V. electronics - The Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 Mic Amp

You know, all of this gear that is being mentioned is excellent, and if you use it right you will get great results, just make sure you don't get saddled with a bad room. Never mind convenience, go for good !!

[Crowdnoise]

I've said here many times before that I think DPAs can be clinical, but I don't necessarily mean that in ensemble applications - in fact, I prefer them over Schoeps for these applications, in part due to the reason below (and I prefer Schoeps for spot mics over DPA). While my main orchestral mics are Sennheiser MKH-800 Twins - decidedly above your price range - I never feel bad about using DPAs. I just used them last week to record the Peninsula Wind Symphony, and they performed exceptionally well in a less-than-stellar venue.

One nice thing about DPAs is that they offer a range of Acoustic Pressure Equalizers that, in a nutshell, change the response characteristics of the mic. Put simply, they are just little black balls that pop on to the end of the mic. I have two different sets that I use with mine. One of them is the L50B. To borrow directly from DPA: "[They] accentuate the on-axis boost at lower frequencies and allow off-axis sources to be strongly attenuated above 1 kHz. This will give your recordings a more intense sensation of source clarity and presence, a marked increase in brightness, and extend the effective reach of your microphones." These are not hype. They really work. So in effect, you get several different mic possibilities with the 4006. Start with the basic set, and then when you want a change, grab an inexpensive set of APEs.

Of course, this all assumes that you can find the mics for your price. Unfortunately (unless you were the buyer!), that pair I linked you to yesterday was snatched up.

If you have trouble finding more, send me a PM and I'll see what I can do.

[Celloman]

Although omnidirectional mics are often the best tool used for large ensembles, I cannot recommend them for the entry level recordist working with school groups in acoustics that are not optimal for recording. You will be frustrated by the difficulties in achieving good balance and also the difficulties recording in a noisy venue. I would recommend them if you are only recording in halls with a superb acoustic and little noise issues.


My advice, as is mirrored by some other comments, is that your first pair of mics be either of multi-pattern variety, like the 414's, or a superb cardioid model like the Sennheiser 8040 (don't forget windscreens if the HVAC is blowing straight across your mics). If you have some cash left over, get a nice mic preamp as well. As Teddy said, get some really good books and go out and have fun learning and listening.

Best of luck!

Mike

[benxiwf]

Wow...this is a fast posting forum..just to clarify...I don't own 414's, I borrowed them for my last session, using the omni setting. I have been recording on my own for about 6 years, but really only know the basics. I think I am pretty good at discovering good mic placement though..I notice that not one person has suggested the earthworks...any reason? I had heard good things.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by benxiwf

I notice that not one person has suggested the earthworks...any reason? I had heard good things.

The QTC series is good but noisy compared to others. Once you've heard DPA, Josephson, or the like, on acoustic ensembles, it's hard to go back to EW omnis. You have to hear them both to know what I mean. The EWs are great for many applications, but I gave mine up entirely for distant micing.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Small capsules are better starting mics because they have more predictable off-axis behavior. I recommend that you first learn to make good placement decisions with omnis and cardiods. You can't go wrong with a pair of KSM141. These omnis are real pressure microphones and they mechanically switch to cardiod. If you can't make good recordings with mics of this quality, "better" mics won't be much help. Then you'll have some cash left to upgrade your preamps and AD converter.

Best answer that I have seen. It is practical and gets you a good pair of mics pretty cheap. I'd give this option some serious thought. I would have liked to start this way.

[benxiwf]

I am giving that serious thought...
and what about the beyer mdc930? So many confusing choices...

[hughesmr]

A spankin' new Sennheiser 8040 stereo set can be had for US $2400 street. World class sound, next to zero self noise, great LF extension, small profile. My #1 choice for cards. Get some shockmounts, though.

I reach for wider patterns when the room is good, but you know, the room is not always good.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

A spankin' new Sennheiser 8040 stereo set can be had for US $2400 street. World class sound, next to zero self noise, great LF extension, small profile. My #1 choice for cards. Get some shockmounts, though.
.

I would amend that to - get some Rycote InVision shockmounts.

That's what I use for all my mics now - normally with the S-series XLR tail to de-couple the cable.

[rumleymusic]

and what about the beyer mdc930

Awesome mic for ensemble recording. Same with 910 omni. Great deal if you cant swing the Sennheiser, DPA, or Schoeps.

[Nobilmente]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I would amend that to - get some Rycote InVision shockmounts.

That's what I use for all my mics now - normally with the S-series XLR tail to de-couple the cable.

Hi John

I must send a picture of the Rycote, I've been trying to locate it (that's what the delay has been) it's still in its original cardboard box, but you know what it's like when gear goes in and out - organisation is not a particulary strong point!

I'll eventually get back to you though.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Nobilmente

Hi John

I must send a picture of the Rycote, I've been trying to locate it (that's what the delay has been) it's still in its original cardboard box, but you know what it's like when gear goes in and out - organisation is not a particulary strong point!

I'll eventually get back to you though.

The nice thing about Rycote is that they are a very friendly company.

They allowed me to play around with bits and pieces and I came up with a great design for a Lyyel MS mount using existing bots put together in a different way. I use this myself and Rycote liked it so much that it is now a standard product (I wish I was on commission ;-) )

I will be at Rycote's Open Day if anyone wants a natter.


Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

[Hornblower64]

It seems to me, with a budget of about $2k, and your stated situation, that there are four upgrade paths to explore:

1) One pair of the best microphones you can afford, with only one pickup pattern. Probably the best choice, given your needs, is to go with a cardioid pair; not always the best pattern for every situation, but should be usable almost anywhere. My choice for this would be Sennheiser MKH8040's.

2) Two pairs of slightly lesser quality: one pair omni., the other card.; more flexible. My choice would be Beyerdynamic MC910 and MC930.

3) A dual pattern pair, another notch down, and a preamplifier. My choice would be the Shure KSM-141's, and a DAV Electronics BG No. 1.

4) A dual pattern pair, and a FD recorder. Portable recorders are much more reliable in the field than a computer. You can use your iMac/m-box for editing. My choice would be the Shure KSM-141's, and Tascam HD-P1, possibly with Oade Bros. modifications. A friend has an Oade/HD-P1, and gets very good results with it.

Good Hunting,

David

[klaukholm]

I assume you will be recording in less than pristine acoustics from time to time.
If that is the case I would strongly suggest a pair of mkh8040 cardioids.
They are quite cheap and have first class sonics.
These will be inconspicuous and will serve you well as allround spots if you expand your rig.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by Hornblower64

It seems to me, with a budget of about $2k, and your stated situation, that there are four upgrade paths to explore:

1) One pair of the best microphones you can afford, with only one pickup pattern. Probably the best choice, given your needs, is to go with a cardioid pair; not always the best pattern for every situation, but should be usable almost anywhere. My choice for this would be Sennheiser MKH8040's.

2) Two pairs of slightly lesser quality: one pair omni., the other card.; more flexible. My choice would be Beyerdynamic MC910 and MC930.

3) A dual pattern pair, another notch down, and a preamplifier. My choice would be the Shure KSM-141's, and a DAV Electronics BG No. 1.

4) A dual pattern pair, and a FD recorder. Portable recorders are much more reliable in the field than a computer. You can use your iMac/m-box for editing. My choice would be the Shure KSM-141's, and Tascam HD-P1, possibly with Oade Bros. modifications. A friend has an Oade/HD-P1, and gets very good results with it.

Good Hunting,

David

[Hornblower64]

After a little homework; the best prices I've found on some of the items I mentioned:

Sennheiser MKH80x0 $2099 pr.
Recording Services & Supply

Beyerdynamic MC930 $999 pr.
B&H Photo Video | Digital Cameras, Photography, Camcorders

DAV Electronics BG No. 1 $790 (all inc. delivered to the states)
D.A.V. electronics

Tascam HD-P2 $777.94
www.bhphotovideo

Shure KSM-141 $799 pr.
everywhere

Hope this helps,

David