Nagra LB vs Sound Devices 702

[mosrite]

I've been getting a lot of queries regards these two machines and the pros and cons of each so I thought I would write a quick run down as I see it but hope that other LB and 702 owners will chime in so we can get a fairly comprehensive list of pros and cons going. This could serve as a useful resource for anyone facing a similar dilemma.

For now I think it wise to focus on feature set/specs as there are no direct audio comparisons that I know of.

As an LB owner I shall start with that.

Nagra LB Pros:

1. Takes Standard AA batteries. This means that no matter what god forsaken region of the globe I am in I will always be able to get spare batteries!

2. Full Size Connectivity no XLR adaptor cables needed, less to go wrong in the field, less fiddly, less space

3. Loudspeaker is proving very useful for client referencing, no need to pass around a set of cans or carry a mini monitor, not great quality but good enough to judge performance

4. Internal Mic not bad quality at all for capturing moments when you cant setup the mic, more useful for ENG and reporting and note taking than music recording though

5. Desktop Operation top screen means sitting on a desktop and navigating files for reference is nice and comfortable

Nagra LB Cons:

(hoping some of these will be addressed by firmware)

1. Battery Indicator because of the AA batteries, instead of a fuel gauge style indicator we have a voltage readout, okay but not as quick to decipher

2. Gain Range some sources are too hot to handle and require an external pad. Perhaps an adjustable gain range would solve this

3. Editing Functionality cannot edit 24bit files. Useless for the majority of music recordists I would suggest

[John Willett]

Nice points.

A couple of things:-

Nagra will release a proper rechargeable pack in the very near future for the LB - so you have the option of AA batteries, rechargeable AA or a proper integrated pack (screws on the back in place of the AA box).

Regarding editing - the LB was designed as a reporter machine and the editing functions were designed so a reporter could edit in the field, connect to his phone via bluetooth and send his report straight back to base. Anyone recording 24-bit music would want to edot in a proper editing program (and my editing program is double the price of the LB complete).

[mosrite]

Regarding editing - the LB was designed as a reporter machine and the editing functions were designed so a reporter could edit in the field, connect to his phone via bluetooth and send his report straight back to base. Anyone recording 24-bit music would want to edot in a proper editing program (and my editing program is double the price of the LB complete).

I understand that but having the option to be able to edit 24bit material would open up a few possibilities for people like myself. I am not quite sure why this is not possible, processor power perhaps?

Also, I have heard that they will be releasing a version of the LB that is simplified and doesn't have the editing features but it also wont have the top screen that I have found really useful (see point 5).

[didier.brest]

I would be much interested by an audio comparison between the 702 and the LB like the one done between the 788 and the VI. Would you think the result would be the same ?

[mosrite]

Well I wouldn't like to speculate but...

I believe that the designer of the VI preamps was the same that designed the LB's. However, the LB's size means smaller caps.

Also, the VI has a different (better) AD.

How this translates in the real world is hard to know without a good test.

[zoom]

I'm a user of a 702 and 744T. Meanwhile I have got very good skills in working fast and effective with these recorders, I get good results and this is the reason I don't care (and all the procucers don't care) if there is a slightly difference from one to the other recorder-manufacturer.

The difference between Nagra to SD is not so big like Nagra/SD compared to a e.g. Tascam-recorder or an Edirol-Pro.

In this class of recorders Nagras, SoundDevices, Cantars or Devas can be mentioned in one row and after a big gap all the others follow.

What I would like to say is: Most important for a professional use is the workflow. Than the individual support and a fast service. You need to see the recorder as a tool which allows you to earn money and not to discuss about a 0.5 dB better or worse S/N.

If someone says this or that is better - please don't speculate. Make a double blind-test and give facts. e.g. I would like to see in a comparison some independent technical measurements!

Cheers Stefan

[didier.brest]

I did not discuss about a 0.5 dB better or worse S/N but about the fact that in the test of the VI and the 788, the VI sounded clearly better. And the difference was quite significant to my ears, according to my experience comparable with the difference between a DAV BG1 and the preamps of a Edirol FA-66, a cheap audio interface. So I'm not keen for accepting without demonstration that a SD sounds much better than an Edirol pro.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

I did not discuss about a 0.5 dB better or worse S/N but about the fact that in the test of the VI and the 788, the VI sounded clearly better.

As the person who conducted that recent SD788T/NagraVI comparison, I'd like to say that there was no "winner". Our evaluation was designed to allow persons to draw their own conclusions. Anyone who says that one is "better" or "worse" is stating a personal opinion. We did no preference study, produced no statistics, nor are there data in the study or in the feedback received to-date to reach a conclusion about preference.

I heard small differences, but none that would make me trade a SD788T for a Nagra VI. Some said the SD788T is sonically superior and others said the Nagra VI is sonically superior. In light of Nagra's pedigree, design goals and price, I would be disappointed if it was weaker in any respect, and it didn't disappoint.

[Don S]

I own the 702 only, and do not have a Nagra for comparison. The biggest downside of the 702 is that it is not capable of powering an external drive via battery power. You must carry a wart for either the 702 or the drive. But the power converter comes with many different prongs that will fit anywhere any voltage. I cannot find any other criticisms after owning the unit for a year.

[mosrite]

Thankyou to Don who has stuck to the purpose of the post that was to compare feature set and not sound quality (at least until there is a proper comparison available) . Are there any of the features that I picked out on the LB that SD owners are drooling over? The selectable gain range of the SD is something I personally desire...

[marvin100]

I've mentioned it before, but one of the sweetest features of the SD is the user network online. The company's online forum is full of genuine power users and constantly checked by company employees and even the CEO himself. Firmware updates have frequently reflected customer requests on the site, and Sound Devices has set a standard for user accountability and interaction that few have followed.

I've learned so much from the other users and employees on the forum. There are big-time Hollywood sound guys, award-winning documentary sound engineers, academics, and location recording specialists as far-flung as mining caves in South Africa and glaciers in Antarctica. Remarkable.

Oh, and I like that my 788t fits in my shoulder bag without any problem. So small, it's amazing it can do what it does.

[Haydn]

Originally Posted by mosrite

The selectable gain range of the SD is something I personally desire...

When I first got my 722 I had to either select normal gain range, or low gain range in the options.
With the latest firmware there is a 'fades to off' function to make the gain pots cover the entire range (with less precise control) so I can go from 0db of gain to 67.4db without going into the options.
(AFAIK the 702 and 722 are pretty much the same apart from the storage medium.)

I have always thought the type of batteries used by the 7 Series recorders is a big advantage.. because they can last a long time

One disadvantage of the 722 for me is that its a bit fiddly to use the menu scroll wheel or headphone volume control when I have the recorder inside the CS3 production case.

[fatal_error]

I recently owned a Nagra LB - beautiful machine, but my unit (and its replacement!) seemed a touch erm... let's say temperamental.

Just received a SD 702 as a replacement and haven't delved into it in any depth yet but there are a couple of things that pop out at me:

• the 702 has a mini jack headphone connector, not the 1.4'' that the LB sports - not a big deal to me, but could be irritating to some;
• the 702 has a much, much better OS - the menus are clearer (and not split between 2 screens...) - also, in operation the 702 is much faster, literally faster I mean, in changing between menu screens, writing files etc. Once again, not a huge deal perhaps, but there's very little lag, which I like;
• the 702 has a more limited feature set: no bluetooth, no editing. To be honest though, I quite prefer the limited scope of the unit... I had the LB for 6 months and never even paired it to another blue tooth device... I also record in 24bit, so I never got to try the editor!

I know this isn't the point of the thread, but here's my 2p on LB vs 702 in terms of sound. I did love the way the LB sounds - I never conducted any scientific tests with it (nor will I with the 702), but the pres and AD have a great character (to my ear anyway!). I had a lot of fun taking it to NY earlier in the year for a week of field recording and it was faultless. The 702 sounds quite different to me... I think it sounds cleaner (more neutral) for what that's worth. They sound different but comparable.

I suppose a feeble analogy is in order: the LB is a sports car - luxurious and quite beautiful (when it's not in a garage being serviced). The 702 is a land rover - fewer features but rugged and built to last.

[philper]

Originally Posted by mosrite

I've been getting a lot of queries regards these two machines and the pros and cons of each so I thought I would write a quick run down as I see it but hope that other LB and 702 owners will chime in so we can get a fairly comprehensive list of pros and cons going. This could serve as a useful resource for anyone facing a similar dilemma.

For now I think it wise to focus on feature set/specs as there are no direct audio comparisons that I know of.

As an LB owner I shall start with that.

Nagra LB Pros:

1. Takes Standard AA batteries. This means that no matter what god forsaken region of the globe I am in I will always be able to get spare batteries!

2. Full Size Connectivity no XLR adaptor cables needed, less to go wrong in the field, less fiddly, less space

3. Loudspeaker is proving very useful for client referencing, no need to pass around a set of cans or carry a mini monitor, not great quality but good enough to judge performance

4. Internal Mic not bad quality at all for capturing moments when you cant setup the mic, more useful for ENG and reporting and note taking than music recording though

5. Desktop Operation top screen means sitting on a desktop and navigating files for reference is nice and comfortable

Nagra LB Cons:

(hoping some of these will be addressed by firmware)

1. Battery Indicator because of the AA batteries, instead of a fuel gauge style indicator we have a voltage readout, okay but not as quick to decipher

2. Gain Range some sources are too hot to handle and require an external pad. Perhaps an adjustable gain range would solve this

3. Editing Functionality cannot edit 24bit files. Useless for the majority of music recordists I would suggest

1: You can easily find/make an external battery setup--almost all doco sound people do this. I've made external battery boxes that used AA/C/D batteries, as well as Lithium NP1s (which last for days in a 702).

2: I assume you mean output connectors, since the 702 has XLRs for inputs.
OK, although it isn't that hard to make the adapter cables, and the lack of XLRs makes the recorder smaller and lighter.

3: I carry a small battery powered speaker for this kind of thing--RadShack has one that works very well for this and runs on a 9v battery. Again, not having this allows the 702 to be smaller/lighter.

4: A slate mic would be nice--otherwise I'd never use an internal mic.

5: having the screen on the top I see as a serious drawback--it makes bag work and stacking the machine with other gear problematic. For this reason alone I would end up passing on the Nagra.

The Nagra is very pretty, It just doesn't seem as practical or versatile to me. But if you prefer the sound, go for it.

Philip Perkins

[Plush]

Hello Fatal Error,

If you had problems with the Nagra why didn't you just have it replaced or repaired? YOu can't come in here where there are real Nagrists and say it was temperamental when our Nagras have worked fantastic for many years.

For that reason I have your commentary on deep discount.

The Nagra is a Ferrari and the SD is a Ford LTD with an iPod input.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by Plush

The Nagra is a Ferrari and the SD is a Ford LTD with an iPod input.

ffense taken

[Suda Badri]

Hi, there are several ways to look at it... I sell both so I get feedback from customers of each, (although, most go for the 744 and up or the nagra VI) soundwise, nagra is unmatched, even against many high end pro audio pres/converters these little guys hold their own... function wise, Id take that beautiful nagra switch/knob anyday over a push button... I think a fair test for professionals who only need 2 chan's would be the yet to come out LB/TC with their new proprietary clocks (that Denecke are now using in their products) vs the SD702T... mind you everybody and their moms are on SLR cams... I think this is where the LB will come into its own, no 2nd screen but carries all the editing/future proof functions... nagra sets a benchmark/over engineering is their middle name, sound devices gives their customers what they want... ferrari vs ford ooooouuuuccchh but funny!

[philper]

Originally Posted by Plush

Hello Fatal Error,

If you had problems with the Nagra why didn't you just have it replaced or repaired? YOu can't come in here where there are real Nagrists and say it was temperamental when our Nagras have worked fantastic for many years.

For that reason I have your commentary on deep discount.

The Nagra is a Ferrari and the SD is a Ford LTD with an iPod input.

That's really silly. I had several Nagras, and the SD stuff is just as well thought out, and more practical for real-world jobs. There are diffs in sound, and preference for one over the other on that subject is fine. But I've used my SD machines for as long as I used any of my Nagras and they are holding up very well..

Philip Perkins

[didier.brest]

Ferrari reliability is certainly not better than Ford's one.

[mosrite]

I recently owned a Nagra LB - beautiful machine, but my unit (and its replacement!) seemed a touch erm... let's say temperamental.

Could you please elaborate on the problems you encountered. Most people here would be very suprised to hear of a Nagra failing at all, let alone two different machines in succession! It's a damning report you give that I feel requires more explanation.

Just received a SD 702 as a replacement and haven't delved into it in any depth yet but there are a couple of things that pop out at me:

Could you please explain this a little more too. Who replaced the LB with the SD, Nagra? where you purchased the unit? Have Nagra agreed a refund of the original machine?

the 702 has a much, much better OS - the menus are clearer (and not split between 2 screens...) - also, in operation the 702 is much faster, literally faster I mean, in changing between menu screens, writing files etc. Once again, not a huge deal perhaps, but there's very little lag, which I like;

My only comparison is the 744t as I havn't used the 702 and I must say that, if they are essentially the same OS I have found the Nagra's infinitely more intuitive and less 'hidden.' That goes for the VI as well which I found amazing in that respect.

OK, although it isn't that hard to make the adapter cables, and the lack of XLRs makes the recorder smaller and lighter.

3: I carry a small battery powered speaker for this kind of thing--RadShack has one that works very well for this and runs on a 9v battery. Again, not having this allows the 702 to be smaller/lighter.

The Nagra is 0.5kg heavier than the SD. But with the XLR output adaptors you refer to I think the weights might start to work out the same. And with your battery powered speaker the scale would be tipping very heavily in the Nagra's favour. Of course the speaker might or might not be of interest to everyone.

5: having the screen on the top I see as a serious drawback--it makes bag work and stacking the machine with other gear problematic. For this reason alone I would end up passing on the Nagra.

Actually the top screen provides the deeper set of menu options whereas most things in the field are achieved via the front screen.

mind you everybody and their moms are on SLR cams... I think this is where the LB will come into its own,

Why do you think the LB would be better suited to this task?

That's really silly. I had several Nagras, and the SD stuff is just as well thought out, and more practical for real-world jobs.

Could you please explain how the SD is more suited to 'real-world jobs' ? I believe a lot of professional recordists both in film + TV as well as music have been using Nagra's on very high profile productions for a very long time.

I also believe that my initial list provided quite alot of evidence that the Nagra LB provides a lot of features that make a lot of sense whilst on a 'real-world job.'

[MichaelPatrick]

Do I have this right? The LB has a tape recorder-like knob and the 702 has a push button. The LB has bluetooth. Nagra's LB a classy expensive sports car and SD's 702 is bloated four door sedan.

It saddens me that all respected GSers aren't moderately critical of their own prejudices. Snarky partisanship and luxury-snobbishness are useless to anyone who just wants to know how the LB earns its high praise and price.

e.g. What uses and advantages of bluetooth? Why is a knob better than a push button? Do the color menus help? How's metering? Sonics? Shootout files? Battery life? Features non-users probably never thought about, and so on ... Please tell, where's the beef?

[Plush]

It's called humor, guys.

The first part of my post to fatal error was meant to be a serious question. The second phrase, a jab and a joke.

Of course I am biased. But everyone knows that here and hopefully can take it in to account. We have been a house of Nagra for 30 years.

Cops and highway patrol use the Ford LTD with a beefed up engine and its called the "Police Interceptor." Does that make anyone feel better??

[didier.brest]

The sound, the sound, the sound!

Comparing two recorders without taking their sonic qualities into account does not make much sense to me. Except if one assumes that they are on par. But I preferred the sound from the Nagra VI with respect to the sound from the SD 788 in the test issued on this forum, which does not mean that I feel the SD 788 sound being bad.

The SD 702 would have the same sonic quality like the 788, but the LB preamps would not have input transformers like the Nagra VI preamps. So the sound question is still open.

[mosrite]

Do I have this right? The LB has a tape recorder-like knob and the 702 has a push button. The LB has bluetooth. Nagra's LB a classy expensive sports car and SD's 702 is bloated four door sedan.

It saddens me that all respected GSers aren't moderately critical of their own prejudices. Snarky partisanship and luxury-snobbishness are useless to anyone who just want to know how the LB earns its high praise and price.

e.g. What uses and advantages of bluetooth? Why is a knob better than a push button? Do the color menus help? How's metering? Sonics? Shootout files? Battery life? Features non-users probably never thought about, and so on ... Please tell, where's the beef?

My main purpose of this thread was to outline the features of the two machines. Features that cannot be disputed. And how those features translate to real-world use and to whom they would be of benefit to.

Addressing some of your points; I would regard things like the tape-like knob of the Nagra as a smaller feature that I personally like as you have a very clear control over previewing, recording and stopping depending on the position the switch is in. It would not sway a purchase decision though.

The bluetooth is a very specific feature that I dont find a use for, doesn't mean that is wont prove useful in the future or others would find a use for it. I probably should have included it in my initial run-down of features.

The battery life on my LB gives me around 6-7 hours of operation that is in keeping with Nagra's literature. Cannot seem to find literature from SD about the 702's batt life. SD user reports welcome here...

Regards sound and shoot out files, I would still love to hear a good comparison test.

It should really be a given that both these machines are built to high spec and are capable of delivering sonically excellent results. Having said that I also much preferred the VI over the 788t in Michaels comparison but dont think that this gives us a strong enough basis for assuming the same results when applied to the smaller machines. Might be worth noting too that the input transformers on the VI are only relevent and in use when using dynamic or ribbon mics

Regards the apparent high price of the LB, I ask people to please remember that this is not the case in Europe where it is in fact on par with the SD machine. Price should therefore not really be an issue in this comparison.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by mosrite

Regards the apparent high price of the LB, I ask people to please remember that this is not the case in Europe where it is in fact on par with the SD machine. Price should therefore not really be an issue in this comparison.

It is an issue for people on this side of the pond. Why aren't Nagra prices in the US a little closer to SD prices? Nagra is a company with long history of pace-setting features and quality. Unfortunately for us, they are just too expensive for many pros in the US and Canada to justify.

[mosrite]

It is an issue for people on this side of the pond. Why aren't Nagra prices in the US a little closer to SD prices? Nagra is a company with long history of pace-setting features and quality. Unfortunately for us, they are just too expensive for many pros in the US and Canada to justify.

It is an issue for people here too. Why are SD machines grossly overpriced here?

And I suppose what I meant by it not being an applicable issue in this comparison was simply that there are too many global pricing variables to make it the same issue for people in different countries. Of course it is an issue as an individual purchaser though.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by mosrite

It is an issue for people here too. Why are SD machines grossly overpriced here?

Is it true that VAT or other taxes/tariffs make the difference? Having bought preamps from D.A.V. Electronics and DACS Ltd. (both UK), I do not believe the U.S. attaches onerous tariffs to imports from UK and EU countries. If SD prices are high in Europe because of the governments' take and import to the U.S. costs comparatively little, Nagra has some explaining to do.

Grant that I'm asking, not telling, because these pricing variables are quite opaque to me. Is there an international dealer here who can explain what's going on?

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Is it true that VAT or other taxes/tariffs make the difference?

No - it's just that American stuff is always expensive this side of the Atlantic.

Whatever the price is in Dollars on the US it ends up being the same in Pounds in England (if not more).

There is Customs duty for US stuff coming to the UK, just as there is duty for European stuff going to the US. That's the way it works.


Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz

[tsvisser]

Since half or more of my work is in film / video... for me personally, any premium recorder I purchase must have timecode, so the 702t timecode version would be nice. Right now, there is no timecode option for the LB (although I hear they are working on it). If the LB timecode version came out, I would strongly consider it. The purchase decision would have to be weighed heavily against the Sound Devices 552, which is primarily a mixer, but has recording to flash media as a built in option.

I have heard some rumblings about the 552 build quality and cross-channel performance. The LB would often have to be used with a mixer front end. A Nagra branded accessory would be nice, thinking of a modern implementation of the old Sela mixer here...

I own the VI, I love it. The only thing I don't like is the spinning HDD. I have also used the 744t, and think that it is a really good value too (for Americans). I could definitely use a recorder / mixer for smaller jobs, since I sold my 302, so am keeping my eye open for a 4+ channel mixer / stereo recorder in the coming year. If Sound Devices improves the performance of the 552, it would be a pretty hard sell to go with anything else.

[Suda Badri]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

e.g. What uses and advantages of bluetooth? Why is a knob better than a push button? Do the color menus help? How's metering? Sonics? Shootout files? Battery life? Features non-users probably never thought about, and so on ... Please tell, where's the beef?

Regarding Bluetooth, Nagra LB is primarily a news/radio (but also does amazing at music recording too)journalist tool, the users of this feature are people from america in afganistan who want to shoot and edit a story on location and send it via bluetooth as they do it to head agency, so their breaking news is faster than a rival news agency. As John Willett discussed alread...

Also the other big user of the bluetooth capability is for survaillance and police undercover work, you basically set up the LB in the ceiling of a room set it to bluetooth and you have a recording thats constantly updated (as long as its mains powered)... basically you set it an forget it, the longest running one we know of is a drug investigation in aussie where it was constantly used for 6 months... no other "recorder" does that as a single unit device... basically its the smallest device they go for.

The switch is better than the buttons. You will kinda have to use both units to form your own judgement but that switch is IMO wayyyy better for the critical functions… There has not been on time where the switch has not worked but plenty of times where I have not pushed the button in completely and missed a take… I know that’s a human error thing but IMO still better.

They Metering on any nagra unit is splendid, you get all the info you need plus the resolution is insane… you have instant feedback in db readouts plus it makes gainstaging a little easier… the colour menus and the general menu layout is all done to make the journalists life easier, which is actually very well thought out, plus you get a copy of a menu flowchart so you know exactly where you are.

These are the reasons why I said the yet to come out Nagra LB with Timecode would be a more fair comparison.

Sonics wise Nagra are the top of the game, there are many shoot out here and I have done plenty and Nagra spanks even my Metric Halo ULN-8 interface (AB’d files side by side, actually that will be a good test for a thread, unfortunately we have sold our last VI)… You just have to hear it compared to a 7 series SD… and everytime I have nagra wins hands down, its angelic… there is nothing bad at all about the sound of SD stuff.

Choose your poison, neither is going to hurt very much.

Cheers