$10k for a PA System - What would you do?

[RobAnderson]

Howdy Folks

I have a <$10k budget to put together a "training" PA system for a local college. This would have to include mic's, cabling and snakes, mixers, amps and speakers (I would like to keep amps and speakers separate), all processors (including system EQ's and crossovers).

The purpose of this system is to be somewhat portable, and it is to be set up and broken down many times over the course of a semester. It is not designed with any particular space in mind, though I'd say it should be able to handle duties in a small- to mid-sized blackbox theatre sort of venue.

It pains me to say this, but absolute sound quality is not so much a concern as having the proper parts to train budding live sound engineers to handle an array of situations that they will find in most small to medium sized clubs, theatres, and houses of worship; and to give them a good background in how a basic system works with mains, monitors, and some sort of auxiliary speakers (such as delay stacks or a lobby feed).

What would you do with 10G's?

[tampa]

Bose.........portable and petty decent for the cost.

[brightshine]

Check out Carvin. Good value for the dollar.

[choinga]

jesus christ, Bose?

I know you said you want to keep the power seperate, but check out the JBL PRX series stuff - it is really, really nice and it's loaded up with Crown power.

One PRX625 + sub per side will really sound great and be easy to install. I saw at my local guitar center a few days ago that they had the 625's on sale for $795 each. Those are 2 X 15's with a serious 1.5" horn. They make some noise and are very clean.

That's around $4k (retail/Sweetwater pricing) for all your FOH speakers/amps.

I have no idea how many monitors or mixes that you need - you could buy some of those smaller 12" JBL EON's to cover 3 or 4 mixes.

Get a Mackie 1604 Console, or equivalent - maybe the 24X8 depending on how many channels/busses you need.

That's another $3k for powered monitoring and your mixing console.

With the other $3k just pick up some Rane EQ's a half dozen SM58's/SM57's, something for a kick drum mic and mic cables/stands.

That should get you into the ballpark. (not assuming you need a snake to run the console remotely - that could be another $500+)

If you need to save $$ you can always go with cheaper FOH speakers but if you are going to be moving around alot - having the powered speakers is nice.

[loopy]

I know I'm going to get laughed at, but I agree with the other guys.

Bose 802's and some decent amps, maybe Crown etc.

At least for FOH.
Monitors are a different story.
JBL, Yamaha or EAW make some nice stuff at various price points.


Understand, a lot of "praise groups", small church groups etc use either pre recorded "Trax" or have light requirements consisting of bass, piano, guitar and vocals and the Bose 802 when properly set up are a decent, generic, all around, real world system that is immensely popular due to ease of transportation and the fact that they actually sound decent with pre-recorded Trax.

Get plenty of amplifier power for these!

For a board, I would look at a used Yamaha or *maybe* a Tascam. Yamaha is a real sleeper that gives a great bang for the buck. Some of the older Peavey boards are sleepers as well, but you have to be very careful because some are horror stories.

Carvin is also another often overlooked company. Decent, not great, but decent stuff for the money. They also stand behind their gear 100 percent so that may be a factor as well.

Yea, you could go Allen&Heath, JBL or EAW and at your price range you might actually end up with a worse system.

One system to consider is the JBL SRX system which is very nice and which you can couple to maybe a Mackie 1604 and some Crown amps.
Another portable alternative.


Just my 2 cents, and I used a Bose 802 stack (4 speakers) for many years for my keyboard rig, lounge lizard gig (with a vocalist) and every time I broke down the gear I was happy I wasn't the person lugging the EAW cabinets.

Snakes, I would look used.
Plenty of stuff out there and if there are any problems they are easily fixed with a soldering iron.

Just my 2 cents so be gentle!

[robertshaw]

EAW
Crown
Midas..........

[loopy]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

EAW
Crown
Midas..........

I agree, but it's gonna be out of his price range unless he gets some sweet deals on used equipment, which of course is possible.

[ddageek]

My old rig would be perfect it was all bought used and under your budget!
EAW JF 200s
EAW SB150 s
powered by 3 Crest FA2401s
xover EV dx34 with Afex domminator in front
Monitor RCF Art300s
2 TDM ge60 graphics
3 Dbx 166
lexicon lxp 15
tc d2
tc m1
mix-wizard
shure and Senn mics

Some will say the mains were under powered yeah, but the places I worked didn't have the power for what I would be called for and the dominator and DX34 kept it from clipping

[husky band]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

EAW
Crown
Midas..........

I'm a long time bar band player and this is the stuff you want. I've also had good luck with some of the new QSC amps. The only power amp I've had trouble with was a Carvin (one channel went out). Lots of people like JBL and Community Sound stuff. Mackie makes a nice line of powered speakers that are very popular. I've never used Bose, some love and others hate it. Oh yea, EV makes some killer PA cabs, don't sell them short.

[loopy]

Originally Posted by husky band

I'm a long time bar band player and this is the stuff you want. I've also had good luck with some of the new QSC amps. The only power amp I've had trouble with was a Carvin (one channel went out). Lots of people like JBL and Community Sound stuff. Mackie makes a nice line of powered speakers that are very popular. I've never used Bose, some love and others hate it. Oh yea, EV makes some killer PA cabs, don't sell them short.

Bose is great if you are doing church "praise" type stuff because it's mellow and because it's very good at REPRODUCING sound, ala Trax. It's also great for those kind of vocals.

However if you are doing a gig where guitars and instruments are fed into the mix, look elsewhere.
JBL
Crown.
EAW
Yamaha
etc.

Just to be clear.
I don't love Bose or anything, I'm just saying that in certain types of situations, Bose really does work out rather well.

I've worked with a lot of praise type groups and Bose really fits the bill.

My "bar gigs" are mostly JBL, EAW, Crown and QSC with everything from Yamaha to Soundcraft as the board.

Again, if you are moving all this stuff, and I don't, you may think otherwise.

[DanyL]

Check Carvin website, there are kits available at your price.

CarvinWorld.com - Guitars, Amplifiers & Pro Audio

Carvin also produce a 8 channels digital EQ called XD88, that can serve as a speakers management device or monitors and P.A. Eq.

For Compressors and gates, I would suggest Presonus ACP88, simple and cheap. For Reverb and delay, TC Electronics M-One.

Good luck.

Dan.

[Fletcher]

Line Array, Line Array Audio, Line Array Speaker, Line Array System, Pro Audio - LA-208 - Sanway (China Manufacturer) - Audio & Sets - AV

It won't sound genius... but its a "real world" start in a lot of ways.

Peace.

[777Artin]

A used Eastern AE-3 with sub powered by Autralian Monitor amps.

Sounds excellent, compact, and hpefully cheaper then 10K

777artin

[therecordinghous]

check out the QSC K Series. Never like QSC til I heard the K12's with some subs....

[Mike Brown]

I would definetly buy PASSIVE speakers.... while active speakers are becoming the norm AND are very convenient passive speakers and outboard amps and crossovers REALLY help with the learning.

[tombak]

Rob, I took an existing spreadsheet that I had from a consultation that I recently did for someone and tried to modify it to your needs, it's attached below. Most of the gear is mid-level quality and this also includes some DIY building of all audio, speaker, and ac cabling. I changed some things around rather quickly so there may be some holes, but the info should be fairly complete. I didn't account for road cases, and alike but that might not be important to you initially. Keep in mind that the used prices are mostly based on average eBay and local Craigslist prices and things of that sort do ebb and flow quickly, including availability.

You had said your budget was around 10k, but this estimate totals around 12 and change. I'm sure there can be many modifications to it that would bring it closer to the pocket and maybe with some padding left over. If you have any specific questions feel free to PM me.

[The_Shoe]

Originally Posted by tombak

Rob, I took an existing spreadsheet that I had from a consultation that I recently did for someone and tried to modify it to your needs, it's attached below.

Are you selling stollen gear? The prices you have listed on the .pdf are way low. Anyone missing there rehearsal system?


For OP, try your question here: Pro Sound Web. Trust me on this one you will have better luck.

[NorseHorse]

You realize he is from the Netherlands (= Euros), right?

[Interzone]

My $.02:

JBL MRX speakers with Crown xti amps, Soundcraft GB2 console, dbx EQ, EWI cabling/snakes, Shure mics... all purchased used on the previously aforementioned Prosoundweb Marketplace:

PSW Sound Reinforcement Forums: LAB Marketplace

Good luck!

[tombak]

Originally Posted by The_Shoe

Are you selling stollen gear? The prices you have listed on the .pdf are way low. Anyone missing there rehearsal system?.

The affordable prices are obtainable with some resourcing.

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

You realize he is from the Netherlands (= Euros), right?

Not the Netherlands, NYC. (formerly known as New Amsterdam)

The euro isn't so strong right now as it is.

[RobAnderson]

Hey everyone - thanks very much for your replies.

Unfortunately, the institution I am doing this for cannot purchase used equipment, so it rules out that way of getting some good bang-for-the-buck.

For the moment, I divided up the budget thusly:
$2k - Speakers
$2k - Amps
$1k - processing (EQ's, Crossovers, etc.)
$2k - snakes and cables
$3k - mic's, etc.

But I can change this around if the need arises I think.

This place has a few older Mackie 1604's lying around that aren't being used, so I figure that can do for the mixers for now. Later on, they could invest in something better - A&H GL series or even one of the Yamaha Digital boards. They also have a few EON's that could be used for monitors for the time being, so I don't necessarily have to buy these right now (though it would be good to have stuff dedicated to this so if something gets blown...).

I have to say those Carvin packages look very appealing, but I can't say that I have encountered a lot of their stuff in my travels. Mostly I see JBL's, EAW's, Meyer, Crown etc. It looks like Peavy-grade stuff (which isn't necessarily a bad thing), and would enable me to invest more money in peripheral things.

Beyond the one "bad amp" experience - does anyone have any first-hand knowledge of/experience with Carvin's equipment, good or bad?

[ArnieInTheSky]

I would be quick to argue that for a live PA rig, putting more money into speakers than microphones. In a live setting, you wont notice as big a difference in microphone nuances as you will in speaker quality. I actually just bought a pretty nifty little set up my self not more than a month and a half ago. I went with the QSC K series set up 2x8 and 212 Sub. I did a room for about 400 people and was told I was too loud. What ever you go with though, I'd say a higher fidelity speaker line than the Peavey or JBL budget lines. You can't go wrong with these mics too:


SM58 x 5
SM57 x 5
Beta 52A x 1
Shure SM 137 x 3
Digiflex DPDI x 4

This is very cost efficient and they work! I don't just mean do the job work. I went to the store and the dudes say, "Try the Sennheiser E935 and the AKG D5." Tried them both and they we're both hotter and brighter then the SM58. But brighter and louder wasn't what I wanted, I want controlled and clear, no feeding back and no hyped high end.. Also you can drop a 58/57 down a few flights of stairs, blow it off, put it on the mic stand and not worry about it. That'll free up budget money for nice speakers and such.

That's my two cents.

jl

Oh yeah, I customized my snake to go 16 XLR in/16 XLR parallel out/ 4 XLR return. This gives you lots of freedom should you do live broadcasting or recording of the live shows. Was only about $100 more to add the 16 out.

[RobAnderson]

Hi Arnie

You are probably right, but that figure has to include some slush for racks, mic stands, shipping, etc.

Also, the school wants some wireless stuff as well, so that brings the number a little higher. Otherwise, your mic list is right on in the direction I am thinking. Also, add to that list some overheads and at least 4 decent DI's (I am thinking Countryman) and the numbers start to add up.

However, those numbers are not set in stone. I am open to any and all suggestions.

[tedpenn]

It seems like a lot of the responses so far have not really addressed your primary need of teaching with this system.

Seems like things are at a point in live sound (among the systems of the size you described) where it's hard to say which way to go. On the one hand, the most effective way to teach about each component and its functions may be to go with a traditional setup. By that I mean, analog mixer, outboard processors, passive speakers, amps, etc.

But, just as in the recording world, a lot of these components are being combined and "virtualized". I'm seeing more and more rooms putting in digital consoles and getting high tech even on the low end (especially new clubs). If I were buying a system that was only simply ideal for the venue you described, I'd be looking at a digital console (eliminating a ton of outboard gear), and probably some type of small powered line array. Can the basics of live sound be taught on such a system? Well, I suppose so, but as to how effectively/efficiently I'm not sure. I guess it's also a toss up as to which type of system they're most likely to encounter when the hit the streets too...

Do you have any inclination toward one path or another?

[The_Shoe]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

You realize he is from the Netherlands (= Euros), right?

No matter where he is those prices are really low and some of the gear is really old and discontinued for new purchases. Sure you can be resourceful but we are trying to teach kids how to be a Tech in modern times.

Plus the OP lives in New York. Shipping on a PA system from the Netherlands to the US would come close to breaking his budget alone. I don't think posting EU prices would be helpful. Especially when the OP stated a budget of $10,000 USD and Tombak's quote was for $12,000+ if it was Euros it would cost the OP $14,000+ then add shipping to that. Seems like a waste of an excel spread sheet to me.

If he did live in the Netherlands the Euro to dollar is= 1 Euro to 1.22 USD. Not that big of a gap.

And by the way: Tombak wrote "Not the Netherlands, NYC. (formerly known as New Amsterdam)"

Thanks for pointing it out though.

[The_Shoe]

Originally Posted by tedpenn

It seems like a lot of the responses so far have not really addressed your primary need of teaching with this system.

Seems like things are at a point in live sound (among the systems of the size you described) where it's hard to say which way to go. On the one hand, the most effective way to teach about each component and its functions may be to go with a traditional setup. By that I mean, analog mixer, outboard processors, passive speakers, amps, etc.

But, just as in the recording world, a lot of these components are being combined and "virtualized". I'm seeing more and more rooms putting in digital consoles and getting high tech even on the low end (especially new clubs). If I were buying a system that was only simply ideal for the venue you described, I'd be looking at a digital console (eliminating a ton of outboard gear), and probably some type of small powered line array. Can the basics of live sound be taught on such a system? Well, I suppose so, but as to how effectively/efficiently I'm not sure. I guess it's also a toss up as to which type of system they're most likely to encounter when the hit the streets too...

Do you have any inclination toward one path or another?

This is a really good post.

My advise to you Rob is to ask for more money. I am serious and not trying to bust the schools bubble. Basically you will be putting together a Bar Band system for $10,000 and teaching college level kids how to put it together. This is not worth there time if they expect to gain any real world knowledge from this. Unless of course they want a career setting up PA systems for wedding bands. Basically you are going to spend $10,000 of the colleges money to teach them signal flow. This is not a jab, just the truth.

Here is an idea of what the low level clubs are installing in there rooms (it's ruff, but gives you an idea on pricing):

Mixer: Yamaha LS9 16 channel digital mixer $6000 or 32 channel digital mixer $11,000 (All EFX and EQ for MOn and FOH included in console)
Snake: Pro Co 16 channel snake $900, 32 channel snake $1900
Speakers: (3) JBL VRX cabinets per side $2149 each Total for six=$13,000 These are full range mini line arrary boxes so you can save money on the crossover and teach them with a baby version of what we are all hanging out on the road and in the clubs.
Subs: (2) $1089 each

The total here so far is $22,078. And we haven't even gotten to Mic, Stands, Monitors, Power for Monitors, Cables, etc.

We are talking about an education and an education usually means something you can use in the real world. I am sorry but we are not using Carvin PA's in the real world.

Just my .2cents, and something to think about. Tedpenn nailed it.

[tombak]

Originally Posted by The_Shoe

No matter where he is those prices are really low and some of the gear is really old and discontinued for new purchases. Sure you can be resourceful but we are trying to teach kids how to be a Tech in modern times.

The OP seems to want to teach a more 20th century approach, rather than buying a line array system and a Yamaha PM5D which would definitely not work within that budget.

Originally Posted by The_Shoe

Plus the OP lives in New York. Shipping on a PA system from the Netherlands to the US would come close to breaking his budget alone. I don't think posting EU prices would be helpful. Especially when the OP stated a budget of $10,000 USD and Tombak's quote was for $12,000+ if it was Euros it would cost the OP $14,000+ then add shipping to that. Seems like a waste of an excel spread sheet to me.

If he did live in the Netherlands the Euro to dollar is= 1 Euro to 1.22 USD. Not that big of a gap.

And by the way: Tombak wrote "Not the Netherlands, NYC. (formerly known as New Amsterdam)"

Thanks for pointing it out though.

Not to create a childish argument but to set some facts straight.

My friend, I'm located in NYC and I am not selling any equipment on that document. The spreadsheet was estimated in USD and the prices are an current average. Check ebay, NY Craigslist, Soundbroker, etc. I rounded up on ebay prices to include shipping, and there is a enormous amount of affordable gear in the NY used market. Seeing that the OP is located in NY, this wouldn't have been an issue. I've have noticed that Nashville sellers tend to ask more than what NY sellers do so maybe that is why you have a hard time believing. Perhaps it's because we don't have any extra space here to store unwanted gear so we tend to re-sell lower to move things out faster?

Just to give you an idea of the fair second hand prices here in NYC, off the top of my head these are some purchases I've made over the past few years.

Via NY Craigslist:
Studer A80 2" MKII 24 $1000
8x ADC 1/4" long frame punch down bays $10/ea
EMT 140 Plate Reverb $500
Soundworkshop 34B console $1000
Studer A80 1/2 2 track $1000
DBX 160x $160
DBX 166 $100
Drawmer DS201 $200
Crown Microtech 2400 $450
Lexicon MPX 1 $225
DBX 166 $80
Neumann TLM 103 $500
TC Electronic M-One XL $220
Orban 111B $125
Yamaha TX81Z $40
Ampex 440B 1/4" 2 track $400
Sennheiser 604 $60
Sennheiser 421 $180
10x Atlas Mic stands w/K&M boom arms $20/ea
2x large Atlas rolling mic stands $100
Dynaudio BM15A (pair) $1600
Yamaha NS10 (pair) $280
Bryston 3B $250
Klark Teknik DN27 $100
USAudio Gatex $75

There's a ton of deals I missed out on such as a Master Room spring reverb for $80, Ampex MM1200 for $1000, Eventide H3000 for $500, 60's Ludwig 3 piece silver sparkle drumkit $300, the list goes on.

Anyway back to the original thread!

[loopy]

Now that the goal posts have moved, definitely spend your money on speakers rather then microphones.
Your audience won't hear much of a difference with mics but will most definitely hear it with speakers.
Carvin gear gets snubbed all the time. It's actually decent stuff, at it's price level and if anything it's at least made in USA, last time I looked.

[RobAnderson]

Thanks for all of the ideas.

Unfortunately, I am given the budget that I am given, and have to do the best I can with it for now. This is not a one-time deal though - there will be opportunities to get more stuff down the road.

The OP seems to want to teach a more 20th century approach, rather than buying a line array system and a Yamaha PM5D which would definitely not work within that budget.

I guess I am a bit of a relic.

The flavor-of-the-month gear changes often and quickly, but the laws of physics and electronics do not change; and that's really what I want them to get from this class, since this will be the closest they get to an electronics course .

I don't have any illusion about them taking my class (for 3 hours a week for 15 weeks) and jumping straight into system tech-ing or becoming operators for a major company. I hope to prepare them to be competent interns for a professional company that can take them to the next level, and/or to help them understand what they are seeing in their churches or in the clubs and bars that they inhabit.

For me that means taking the long view and teaching the basic concepts, and to me that means having the components separate and understanding the role of each. This way, however the technology evolves, it is never beyond the grasp of your understanding, because you understand the concept beneath it.

Maybe that's an antiquated approach, and maybe it's the wrong way to go about it in today's environment. I'll have to sleep on that one.

On the other hand, I also want them to have gotten their hands on things that they will encounter in the real world, because their familiarity with current equipment will help them get ahead. A digital board would be great, but I don't think it is really practical at this time. Maybe I can get an 01V96 or something, but is that really where I am best off spending my money? I certainly can't get an LS9 or M7CL on this budget.

Line arrays are sort of out-of-the-question for the time being: I won't have a means of flying them and the space I have to work in at the moment is rather small and multi-purpose. I like the idea of the Carvin packages, but the low price and the fact that I don't encounter them very often makes me a little nervous.

[tombak]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

I guess I am a bit of a relic.

That makes two of us. I think you have the right idea.

Since you have to puchase gear new, many manufactures and even some retailers have educational discounts available, you should definitely look into that. You should be able to avoid sales tax with this angle as well. If not purchase stuff out of state and you can save $ on sales tax and a vendor like Sweetwater will ship most stuff for free.

Yorkville is another manufacturer to consider. They load their Elite series cabinets with B&C speakers, which are good quality.