Are laptops reliable enough?

[tmcconnell]

I would love to hear some points of view on the suitability of using laptops in general for live capture w/ daw software. I assume a purpose built windows machine tuned for audio, and firewire. Does express card or adat card change that? I have a decision to make. Thanks. t.

[studer58]

Originally Posted by tmcconnell

I would love to hear some points of view on the suitability of using laptops in general for live capture w/ daw software. I assume a purpose built windows machine tuned for audio, and firewire. Does express card or adat card change that? I have a decision to make. Thanks. t.

I think there might be one or 2 companies in the world that do a "purpose built windows machine tuned for audio"...most people have to settle for whatever the major makers turn out (Acer, Toshiba, Vaio, etc). My experience with firewire on location has been horrendous...complete signal dropouts requiring a machine reboot and valuable concert minutes lost. You may do better, with external expresscard or Cardbus Texas Instruments chipsets to replace the onboard ones, but if you can go for a dedicted non computer recorder you may be better off in the long run ? How many laptops have ADAT inputs ? Latest results suggest that even USB 2.0 interfaces may be more reliable ....

[MichaelPatrick]

I would never put my reputation in the hands of a laptop recorder. At least you've got the right idea, to dedicate a machine to it and find the right I/O gear for stability. It can be done but I'm not disciplined enough to keep a computer running smoothly enough to be sure it won't crash.

[Corran]

I've had great success running a very small netbook with both USB2 and FW input devices. However, I still run a backup and for most of my work use a harddisk recorder.

[chris319]

I am no fan of laptops or netbooks for audio recording; there is just too much going on inside. I've become a big fan of dedicated recorders.

[SoundWeavers]

I've been using my MacBook Pro 3,1 for live recording since 2007. No hiccups, no problems. My last live recording was a couple of weeks ago, an entire chorale ensemble's live concert.

I usually use ProTools LE with an 003R interface. Depending on the number of inputs required, I'll have a Digimax via ADAT hooked-up also.

I have also recorded via Logic with an M-audio lightpipe and 3x Digimax for 24 inputs.

I always bring the following.
UPS for the interfaces and hard disk.
Power Conditioner
External Hard Disk (Glyph)

[AlexK]

The issue is the software, not the hardware.

If you look after it, a good laptop will last for years (my MacBook Pro is nearly four years old now and the only issues I've had are with Logic crashing).

I've just moved over to Reaper though, and it seems incredibly stable so far...

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by chris319

I am no fan of laptops or netbooks for audio recording; there is just too much going on inside. I've become a big fan of dedicated recorders.

This is exactly the same as my thoughts - I use a Nagra VI for origination and only use a laptop for editing.

The only laptop route that seems to be reasonably reliable is one used with the little SADiE portable unit - and I would then discuss that option with SADiE.

Personally, I don't take the risk.

Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

[Toobs]

Two Macbooks of mine have endless problems.

Laptops run very hot. You'll be stressing them using them as a DAW. Their fans can get quite noisy when they kick on. Which will be pretty often during a session. One of the tricks they use to help cool down a laptop is to spin up the hard drive - to become a sort of extra fan. This shortens the life of the hard drive. As it is spinning quite a bit...add in to the mix the scorching heat that has built up inside the tiny cases, and you have a sure recipe for an impending drive failure.
One of my Macbooks had around five hard drives fail. My current Macbook has one drive failure so far.
I also tend to pick up quite a bit of intereference (the hard drive spinning, drive head clicking, etc..) in my guitar pickups when using my Macbook.

My MacMini is dead quite though.

A couple of PC netbooks I've used were pretty quiet. Slow as molasses. But okay for some basic sessions.

If you NEED the mobility, then laptops are great. I'm glad I have the option to track anywhere I want. But it's an extension of my desktop and not my primary DAW.

[Gerax]

I don't know what others are doing with their laptops (Mac or PC), but I've been recording countless gigs on my Dell XPS M1330 Core 2DUO and Profire Lightbridge combo...I run PTMP and usa a simple external USB drive while the interface is hooked up to the built in FW on the laptop. I run a parallel backup with a dedicated HD recorder (Mackie SDR2496), but so far I haven't had a single problem as far as stability or reliability go. The only thing I can warn you against is: be sure to have enough power and that your power supply and battery are always running at their maximum as it's crucial for the drives and software to run smooth and efficient.

Hope this helps

[JPeters86]

I've recorded a lot of gigs with my MacBook Pro 2007, never had any problems.

[Audiop]

No matter what kind of recorder I would use a backup would always be there. So for me laptops works just fine.

I have used a MBP13" with Reaper and a Lynx Aurora 8 for some time and it's perfectly stable, cool running and silent.

Backup use to be a 12" PC-laptop but I recently added another MBP.


/Peter

[bokaasen]

I would like to recommend mac. Well that's my only experience within laptops. My macbook pro works fine for me

[David Spearritt]

I used to swear that I'd never trust a laptop for location work, and I still don't!

But I use one as a multitrack backup, running Reaper and the TC SK48 and NEVER had a problem with it in 3 years of operation. Its a Lenovo T61 with a TI chipset FW PCMCIA card. I have stripped down the laptop to the bare minimum of services and software, and disabled NICS, batteries and all irrelevant devices, and it's dedicated to recording, it never has any other function.

So far it has been faultless. It's a wonderful addition to a location gig, gives me 12 channels of backup and pre and post processing options that you don't get with a standalone recorder.

But I still don't trust it on it's own, like I do happily with my Nagra V.

[chris319]

If you absolutely must use a computer to record audio, the first thing you MUST do is disable all wireless networking hardware -- just shut it off. Might as well disable all wired networking while you're at it. What on Earth do you need networking for when recording audio? The one time I've had major audio dropout problems was when I was testing a mic on a laptop with wireless networking enabled. Good thing it was only a test; it popped like a kettle of popcorn. Man, what a disaster that would have been if it had been important audio. I disabled wireless networking and that was the end of the problem.

I used to get decent streaming audio (radio stations over the Internet) with Windows XP. That all changed for the worse with Windows 7 and the new audio architecture. I can't recommend Vista/Windows 7 for audio recording of anything critical. As a programmer I work with a guy who is working on the PortAudio implementation of WASAPI, the Vista/7 audio engine (PortAudio is at the heart of Audacity). I helped him get playback working decently but recording is another matter; it is very tricky to implement. Oh, and Audacity (PortAudio) under MME or DirectSound does not record true 24-bit samples. It records 16 bit samples and pads them to 24 bits.

I have a MacBook which runs both OS X and Windows Vista and again, if you must use a computer, it's OS X all the way. It's the most robust.

A while back I was on a discussion board for voice-over artists and they started pissing and moaning about fan noise in the booth and dropouts, clicks and pops under ProTools and yadda yadda yadda. I suggested using a CF recorder such as the Fostex or the Zoom. That's when the pissing and moaning got worse. "Oh, you can't get good audio on a cheap little recorder like that" bla bla bla. One guy thought it would be risky transferring audio files from the recorder to the DAW over USB. RISKY? I truly believe that guy had a drinking problem. Fine, let them wallow in their ignorance. fuuck

[mosrite]

I would love to hear some points of view on the suitability of using laptops in general for live capture w/ daw software. I assume a purpose built windows machine tuned for audio, and firewire. Does express card or adat card change that? I have a decision to make. Thanks. t.

If you run a backup then sure, why not?

I personally hate using a laptop on location in every way except the fact that it gives you immediate editing, routing, analysis possibilities and it cuts out the need to transfer to DAW later.

Apart from the reliability issues that might or might not come up, you have boot time to consider, battery time to stress about, ground loops if running off AC adaptors and the need for a table to put it onto.

Having said all that I recommend the IBM thinkpads (although mine is an older pre-chinese IBM version, cannot personally vouch for the new ones).

[fifthcircle]

I use Mac laptops in the field and I've had great luck with them. That being said, my laptops are very lean machines. Heck, I don't even have extra plugins on them. I keep it lean with a couple record programs, drivers for interfaces and some CD burning stuff. Anything else is done on a different machine.

Keep it clean and you'll be stable.

--Ben

[rumleymusic]

There are a few brands of laptops that I trust. Asus, Mac, Lenovo, Toshiba. There are only a handful of laptop makers in the world, and they make the computers for most major companies. I think Asus is the only one that makes their own. I now use a Lenovo (IBM) and I have never had so much as a glitch. Though I agree with the assessment that is should be dedicated to audio only. My laptop has A) windows XP B)the DAW. That is it. It is a location recorder.

If it a question of durability, someone recently spilled a glass of water on the keyboard, and it is still working perfectly. I trust the build of laptops more than desktops now-a-days..

[John Moran]

ASUS C-90 assembled for audio by Sonica, WinXP SP2 and Sequoia v7 or v10 software. You cannot use this laptop in the same room as the mics because it has liquid cooling and fans but it's essentially a Core 2 desktop in laptop form for great portability. ASUS built the C-90 as a tour de force of their laptop technology. For all the mac-heads out there, ASUS is the OEM of the macbook for apple. (You're running ASUS machines with an iFruit logo on it. )

Recorded three classical location performances a week ago, no real issues. Running a Sound Devices 702 for live stereo mix with individual tracks and the 2 mix going to Sequoia over FW from a Mackie 1640. Tested 18 tracks over FW from the Mackie. Also have a Mytek 8x192 with the firewire option and no issues once the DICE driver was sorted out a couple of years ago. This is using the onboard FW port of the ASUS even as I have a PCMCIA card with the TI chipset in it; I'll try that out at some point for giggles and grins. Under consideration is the RME PCMCIA MADI card for a larger rig being planned; I suspect RME will be its usual stable self.

Set up properly it can be done, -properly- being the operative word. Solid hardware and software are the keys.

I may set up a system on Win 7/Sequoia as 7 seems to be quite stable and see how that works but why mess with a good thing. Was considering a JoeCo as a second location multitrack but as remote section readers have recently read that may have some questions.

Still beats using a truck with big tape machines like I used to do 20 years ago to accomplish the same thing I can do today with a laptop and things I can carry in the trunk of a 380SL.

[sonare]

Lots of valuable experience shared on this thread! Nothing new to say, but I do not think there is much question that purpose-built machines (Alesis HD24/ Nagra VI/ SD/ DR-680 etc) are the most reliable-- the modern version of the tape recorder. My HD24 and DR680 have both performed without a hiccup.

I currently use 2 MBs (one a MBP) running Sequoia and Samp LE for capture and they have not shown any bad habits. This is with FW interfaced stuff in XP Pro. I cannot say the same for my days in OS X using MacOS -interfaced devices.

The main potential failure modes are loss of AC (use a UPS); allowing the machine to do too much that robs processor cycles (turn off everything you don't need ESP wireless networking); keeping CPU load at a minimum (don''t exceed 96k and TEST your track load); and internal HD failure (use externals). On the last point I have had 100% success with a small USB bus-powered 160GB Verbatim with the MB-- the MBP uses an Express34/ FW800 card feeding an external on larger sessions.

CAVEAT: I do everything at 24/44.1 because I hear no advantage at higher sample rate when the delivery format is a regular CD.

The cautious also run backup--but the wisest plan is to keep the chain as simple as possible.

Rich

[XJR]

I've been using a laptop and Reaper for about 2 years now. It's a very small Dell Latitude XT notebook which reliably records 32 channels from a Tascam DM4800 via firewire. The audio is recorded to a solidstate drive connected via USB

The main thing with laptops is don't get hung up on brand names, Dell for instance might use Quanta to build one model of Dell Latitude and another lesser quality Chinese OEM to build a cheaper Inspiron or Vostro etc. You get what you pay for. If it comes with a 3 year warranty as standard it's probably built reasonably well.

Things like ultra low voltage CPU and very basic video help the laptop run cool. You don't need a powerful CPU to record audio, you can edit the session on a real computer. Laptops with powerful processors and powerful video chips rely totally on the fan and heatsink to stay below terminal temperture. Once there's enough debris between the fan and heatsink radiator it will struggle to run cool .... normally leading to failure of the BGA solder joints if the problems not dealt with.

I'm not a mobile recording expert but I have done over a hundred location recordings with my setup and the only problem I ever had was when I accidently chose the notebooks internal drive for the audio instead of the solidstate drive. In this situation Reaper will continue to try and record to the drive but the audio will have dropouts everywhere. Prior to the notebook I was using a rackmounted desktop PC and Protools LE for 18 channels. I don't miss carrying the old system about that's for sure

[hbphotoav]

Just finished a really interesting week. We sailed Friday a week ago on the QM2 for Southampton, to be in Coventry the past two days to record (audio and video) the 26th International Church Music Festival. I was able to record a couple of jazz sets in a bar on QM2, and we just wrapped 12+ hours of ICMF rehearsal and program at Coventry Cathedral.

My record chain for this event was mics (Gefell M296s, Senn 8040s and DPA 4061s) through an Apogee Ensemble to MacBook Pro (Logic Pro sessions, 44.1/24bit) to HDD, with the analog mixed audio out of the Ensemble feeding the principal camera's (Sony Z1) line inputs for backup. 110v, 240v, in the middle of the Atlantic or in the Midlands of England... no problems. I'll be posting a more complete description with some clips and photos after I get some sleep (it's 12:45 am here). The passage was restful, but we just did three major concert events in two days. Yikes.

The Apogee/MacBook Pro/Logic solution is a good, stable, solid one... even if I had no weight limit remaining to wag the DAV BG8 along this time. Mics, computer, primary HDD and backup HDD, UltraSone cans, interconnect cables and connectors all fit in a backpack, with a couple of DSLRs, an iPod and some reading material. Ensemble, power cables, Sennheiser RF mic system and 40 reels of DV tape in one suitcase; mic stands, two 250' mic cables and two tripods in a SKB golf club case, both under 50#/23Kg. Beats the tar out of the old TEAC A3340S...

HB

[studer58]

I'm not sure if there's a Mac version of this, but for PC laptop usage (probably equally as valid for desktops ?) a free, essential download is DPC Latency Checker. Rather than me trying to simplify what it does here, go to their short pdf manual at: http://www.thesycon.de/dpclat/dpclat.pdf and see how it gives a vital instant analysis of how well your computer's current operating status is for audio recording. You can spot regular and irregular interrupts to your audio stream easily, and by disabling applications such as networking, battery status monitoring, onboard CD/DVD drives etc you can be sure of running a lean, mean laptop for recording. This DPC download is so significant and useful it should be a compulsory addition to every DAW driver !! However the DAW creators assume that recordists know all this secret business anyway..?
Ray

[Larry Mal]

I used a Macbook Pro (build 2,2), Logic 8, an external Firewire drive running off an expansion card, and a Firewire interface. It all ran perfectly. I was terrified the whole time. I didn't have any backup.

Have backup, is my first point.

The second is, I'm pretty knowledgeable about Macs at this point, and I knew how to find and turn off the Bluetooth, and Airport, and Software Update, and Spotlight and all of it. The only things I had going were the OS- which is actually still quite a lot- and Logic.

It worked. If I was actually doing this more professionally, I'd still use the same rig, I'd just have splits running into some other field recorder.

[studer58]

Originally Posted by studer58

This DPC download is so significant and useful it should be a compulsory addition to every DAW driver !! However the DAW creators assume that recordists know all this secret business anyway..?
Ray

ermmm...maybe not !

Legal Notice from DPC: The dpclat.exe program is free for non-commercial use. It may be copied for private purposes. The program may not be included in any commercial software or software collection and may not be distributed without a written permission. Commercial licenses are available.

Anyway, despite all that, get it for yourself without delay...you'll learn a lot about your laptop's inner workings !

[Audiop]

Just want to add that I record eight channels at 24/192 to the internal HD of the 13" MBP without any problem. Typically record at 88.2 or 96 though.

I do turn off the Bluetooth and wireless and also make sure only necessary apps are running.

With to low buffer setting and Bluetooth and wireless on I did experience some clicks in the audio.

The 13" MBP is really really nice for on location recording since it's so small, stable and silent. I would have bought another one if I didn't need something more powerful for video so now it's a 1st gen 13" MBP with a 15" MBP i7.


/Peter

[bass man]

I record weekly 16 channel with my 5 years old laptop, cubase via PCI slot to RME and apogee with no problem ....

[audibell]

Originally Posted by Toobs

Two Macbooks of mine have endless problems. Laptops run very hot. ... One of the tricks they use to help cool down a laptop is to spin up the hard drive - to become a sort of extra fan. This shortens the life of the hard drive.

Er, I don't think so. 2.5" hard drives are almost airtight, but for the vacuum breaker pinhole on one side, so no amount of platter spinning will move enough air to do any cooling. The turning on and off for battery conservation is what shortens the life, along with inefficient air exchange inside the laptop chassis. So in Power Options, leave the hard drives at Always on, use the wall wart and a UPS (like Rich said).

I use rackmount 24ch and laptop 8ch as a backup; for 24ch location recording sessions, we use a second racktop (cheaper than an HD24) taking Y splits off the back of the preamps. PCMCIA card for the 8-ch interface and the sample drive is a little Glyph using a FW400 port on the mobd.

Sound capture needs hard drive thruput more than CPU cycles, so a fast speed, 7200rpm, and large cache, 32megs, is king. DPCLAT.exe is useful for when you're fine tuning a laptop by turning off services in Run:msconfig. The green bars will get lower and lower as you remove CPU cycle-robbing apps like Google update, Java quick starter, and any sys-tray schedulers. The reason for a bare-bones profile is to reduce to almost nothing, the number of attention diversions from the main task of recording, which micro-second diversions contribute pops. clicks & stutters; fast CPUs & RAM are useful for editing but fast outboard hard drives are essential for capture.

There is another prog at HD Tune website which is really useful to benchmark all your recording drives. It tests and determines transfer rates and access times in megabytes/sec, the object being to use a drive with a maximum MB/sec transfer rate & minimum access time. It reports the actual rate in your particular setup. I was surprised to learn that a WD Caviar Green WD5000AADS @ 7200rpm wrote data faster than a WD Raptor WD1500AHFD @ 10,000rpm, probably because the Raptor has a 16MB cache & 2 platters versus the Green's 32megs and only one platter. The Green also runs cooler and quieter inside the rackpots.

You can confirm all this by playback of 24 tracks of 24b 48k files with 3 or more compressors/reverbs loaded per track and keep adding tracks until your system chokes/stutters. For capture, I use 8 mics clustered around a speaker emitting a 700Hz tone, each split 3 ways to fill up the 24 inputs. Record at 24b/96k and playback looking for dropouts. If you usually record 24b/48k, your critical demand on the system will be less than tested in your shop.

There's a guy on GS, Scott I think - the business is called adk, whose posts are very helpful about laptop issues generally.
WalterT

[pkautzsch]

You need a backup anyway. So either you bring two recorders, or one recorder and one laptop. Going the laptop route, you have everything (hopefully) inside the DAW right at concert end. No need to rerecord or ftp from recorder into DAW later, except when computer had drop-outs. Then, it's quite fast to rerecord precisely the missing parts. Timecode is your friend.

[PLAbass]

I've been recording on location with a Macbook Pro, a 002 (now a lightbridge), and a Glyph GT062 for a while now. Live shows are usually 44.1/24-bit, 12-16 tracks, maybe 50min-2 hours.

It's sketchy. 90% of the time it's totally flawless but every once and a while... You can adjust your HW buffer size, turn off wireless/bluetooth/spotlight/filevault, run on separate FW and USB buses, all that. It's still a computer that was built to do everything, not just record audio.

This isn't new information. Just a big +1 to the backup idea. Always run a backup. Lately I've been recording shows to a Radar 24. My laptop is the backup .