An impossible situation - vocals through PCCs

[blacklight_uk]

Hi guys,

I'm fairly new to live sound being mainly a studio guy so please excuse me if this is a silly question.

I'm mixing FOH for a show at the moment. It's a dance show but the dancers are also singing in certain scenes. They've absolutely refused to wear head sets or lavalier mics so the only way we can mic them is by using floor mics and shotguns.

Here's the room - Paul McCartney Auditorium (PMA)

At the moment we have two PCC-160s behind the centre fills, two PZMs mounted on the columns at either side of the stage and two shotguns pointing in from the stage sides. We can't put anything upstage because LX are moving curtains and screens around.

OK. The problem is that no matter what we do the vocals just aren't loud enough before feedback, even after extensive EQ. There are no vocals through the monitors, we just can't push the mics any further.

The front fills are T10s so there isn't a ridiculous amount of bass coming from the back of them. The PCCs are positioned behind them and on some small wooden blocks.

What I'm looking for is any advice on any other mic techniques we could try. We asked about flying in a spaced pair above the dancer's heads but it's inevitable that someone will jump into them or kick them by accident...

Would really appreciate some help. We have another tech rehearsal tomorrow before the show and it'd be great if we could push the vocals up a little more.

Cheers

[Lazerface]

Sounds like a tough situation. The only real solution I can think of is recording the vocals on their own and then playing back the track. That way you're not having the chance of feedback at all. Flying mics in will probably give you the same results as you have now.

Hope this helps!

[NorseHorse]

Hall looks small. There are two potential problems here, and two only:

1. You have the music too loud. Or
2. The singers need to sing louder.

Sometimes it's a combination of the two, but really, in that hall, you should need any mics at all.

[blacklight_uk]

Thanks for the suggestion Scott. Certainly is a ball-ache... I don't think we've got time to record the vocals on their own before the show but that would have worked well.

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Hall looks small. There are two potential problems here, and two only:

1. You have the music too loud. Or
2. The singers need to sing louder.

Sometimes it's a combination of the two, but really, in that hall, you should need any mics at all.

It is quite a small place but vocals really do need reinforcing. From the back of the room you can barely hear vocals at all over the music. These aren't trained singers either, they're dancers, so they don't really know how to project properly. We have told them repeatedly to sing louder and project better and it was getting better towards the end of tech 1 this afternoon. Still not good enough though really.

Vocals are certainly more intelligible with the music down, but the energy disappears and the on stage volume is fighting with FOH, not because the monitors are loud (they aren't loud enough really) but because that's how much we have to bring down playback! We're getting that little from the boundary mics.

I think we're going to have to bring the levels down for the sung parts and then pump it back up for the dance tracks. We want to keep the levels up as much as possible to keep the energy strong. It's mainly urban dance stuff so it needs to be pumping. Compromise for the greater good I suppose.

Sorry to moan! I know this is a bit of an impossible situation but I thought I'd post on the off chance that there was some sort of magical cure

[John Willett]

Backlight, this is LIPA, it's the best school in Europe for this.

Is this a student performance?

If so, the dancers are being very unprofessional and such an atitude could affect their result.

The only contact I know there is Jon Thornton - try and get hold of him and talk over the problem and, if appropriate, he would know the best tutor on the dance side to talk to.

It needs to be sorted with a professional atitude and that may mean the dancers being instructed to wear a headmic. or tie mic. in the hairline.

Talk to the tutors and I would talk to Jon first.

I hope this helps.

Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

[blacklight_uk]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Backlight, this is LIPA, it's the best school in Europe for this.

Is this a student performance?

If so, the dancers are being very unprofessional and such an atitude could affect their result.

The only contact I know there is Jon Thornton - try and get hold of him and talk over the problem and, if appropriate, he would know the best tutor on the dance side to talk to.

It needs to be sorted with a professional atitude and that may mean the dancers being instructed to wear a headmic. or tie mic. in the hairline.

Talk to the tutors and I would talk to Jon first.

I hope this helps.

Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

Hey John,

Yep, it's a student performance and all of us on sound are students here too. We've spoken to the dance teacher and he's been pretty uncooperative. We have tech 2 in about an hour and then a full dress rehearsal. Show's at 7 so I don't think we'd have enough time to source headmics and sort RF now even if we could convince the director.

I think we're just going to roll with it and make it work. We lost a sub yesterday. 20 minutes later QLab froze and wiped a load of files! The whole thing has been cursed!

[John Willett]

OK - very sad that the dance side are seeming to be very unprofessional about this as a professional show would have had the dancers wired if they were singing.

The only real alternitive is to do it the old fashioned way with float mics. - an array of gun mics. But the skill in operating such an array has been lost in this modern time of radiomics.

Is Jon Thornton your tutor? If so, I would talk it through with him.

It's a while since I have been up at LIPA, I did a guest lecturer bit there onicrophones a few years ago.

Good luck.


Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

[blacklight_uk]

Cheers John. Yeah Jon Thornton is the head of Sound Tech here. Great guy and extremely knowledgeable! I've sent both him and my live sound lecturer an e-mail about it as neither of them will be in today. Hopefully it'll be OK. Listening today it sounds a little better than I remember anyway.

I'll tell JT you said hello! Any plans to come back and do another guest lecture?

[leemcmahon]

tell them to belt it, josh!

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by blacklight_uk

I'll tell JT you said hello! Any plans to come back and do another guest lecture?

Cheers - and I'll happily do another guest lecture if Jon wants me to.

Good luck with the show - I hope it all works out OK.

Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

[blacklight_uk]

Originally Posted by leemcmahon

tell them to belt it, josh!

Need your Norn Ironish charm buddy!

Cheers John, I hope so too