Field Recording with the portable Sony PCM-M10 (two questions)

[zi161618]

To anyone familiar with the Sony PCM-M10 portable digital recorder,

I’ve just recently begun using the PCM-M10 in the field and thus far I’m thrilled with the results, which are far better than I expected for such a budget recorder. But I have two issues I’d like to resolve in order to extend its capabilities:

1) While I’m ecstatic with ambient recordings I've made with the PCM-M10's two built-in omni condenser mics, I still haven’t been able to get satisfactory recording level from my Audio-Technica 897 shotgun mic. When I plug the AT shotgun into the external mic jack, the sound level drops significantly, even with the recorder’s mic sensitivity setting at "High," and with the mic pointed straight at a well-projected sound source, so much so that I have to revert back to the built-in mics, when I would really prefer to "zoom" in on the single sound point. There is an option on the PCM-M10 for "Plug in Power," but I hear no obvious difference between either choice: neither the two AA batteries in the AT mic itself, nor the internal power of the PCM-M10 seem capable of producing a useful signal from anything less than an unnaturally loud sound source.

Does anyone out there have any possible solutions to offer, or --- insofar as I'm a complete novice with shotgun mics -- is it more likely that I'm simply expecting far too much from the AT-897, which is simply incapable of capturing a normal bird song with the same sensitivity as the built-in omni condenser mics? Do I need additional power for the shotgun mic? I realize that a parabolic dish is an option, but I’d like to get by without that if I can.

2) I’m wondering if there is any reason not to try using lithium batteries. I'm about to take the thing on the road, where my recharging options will be limited, and I would like to carry as few batteries as possible. I'm presuming (perhaps incorrectly?) that lithium batteries are my best option, but I'm not sure that I should use them in the PCM-M10. Its options for "Battery Setting" are (1) Alkaline and (2) NiMH, but there is no mention of lithium. The only remarks on other battery types in the printed "Operating Instructions" are NOT to use "manganese batteries" and NOT to "mix different types of batteries." Is it safe to assume that one can use lithium batteries and, if so, then should the battery type be set to "alkaline"?

Any thoughts and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

[Celloman]

When you are plugging the mic into the mic jack, are you switched to mic or line input? Make sure the -20 gain pad is not activated. There could be an issue with plugging your mono microphone into a stereo input, not sure though.

Mike

PS: Lithium is fine.

[zi161618]

Thanks kindly, Mike, for the feedback. I don't think there is a manual setting/switch between line input and mic input. As far as I can tell, I think the recorder automatically detects an external mic when it's plugged in (but I'll review the Operating Instructions text closely again). Perhaps you're right about a less-than-optimum compatibility between the stereo recorder and mono mic --- which makes me think that I may need to switch to a "mono" setting, if there is such a thing. But I don't recall that option in any of the recorder's settings menus, nor from the Operating Instructions. But I'll check again.

Thus a lithium battery should work fine with the battery type set to "alkaline" (rather than NiMH)?

Thanks, again.

James

[zi161618]

I just checked the Operating Instructions, and there is no switch between the mic and line inputs. Apparently the recorder simply detects the external mic automatically, because as soon as the external mic is plugged in, the recorder prompts the user to select "plug in power" (or not). The mic input also takes priority over the line input, so there's no need to tell it when an external mic is plugged in.

The mono-mic-to-stereo-input possibility now seems to me the more likely source of the problem; for although the Instructions say nothing about the microphone types and their use with the PCM-M10, the diagram illustrating the connection of an external shows a "STEREO microphone" [my caps]. Which makes me suspect that the recorder is, indeed, not working correctly with my AT shotgun.

So I guess I need to figure out a better way of matching a mono-shotgun-mic to the PCM-M10. I would think there must be some kind of connector/adapter that would increase their compatibility, no?

james

p.s. Re. Mike's other suggestion, I don't think there is an activated "-20 gain pad" -- at least I don't see any allusion to such a setting (whatever it means) in the Instructions.

[RJHollins]

my Sony M-10 has both a LINE-IN and
a MIC-IN. These are 2 different input jacks on the
'top' of the unit.

[Celloman]

Yeah, some of my comments were based on the D50, which I had. Your version may differ. Sounds like the mono plug may be incompatible with the stereo input.

Mike

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Celloman

Yeah, some of my comments were based on the D50, which I had. Your version may differ. Sounds like the mono plug may be incompatible with the stereo input.

Of course a mono plug is incompatible with a stereo input - you would be shorting out one channel.

You would need an adaptor to stereo plug with tip and ring shorted so that the mono signal goes to both channels.


Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

[zi161618]

Thanks to all who have responded thus far. In response to John's diagnosis, I must follow up by confessing that I'm no longer sure about the necessary mono-to-stereo adapter, because up to now I thought that I already had the correct connection. When I bought the AT-897 (from "B & H Photo/Video" in N.Y.), they recommended this XLR transformer, specifically for a mono mic, so that's what I now have:

Pearstone | LMT100 - Low to High Impedance Matching | 8111240

OF course they may have recommended this cable on the assumption that I would be able to adjust my recorder to a "mono" setting (i.e. for a mono external mic). But, as I said, the PCM-M10 does not seem to offer that option. There ARE separate "line" and "mic" inputs on the PCM-M10, but there does not seem to be any way to adjust the recorder specifically to a mono mic.

Now that I've begun to search for a solution to the problem (of the shotgun mic's unexpectedly low sensitivity), I just noticed that B & H also sells an inexpensive XLR/F-to-mini/M "connects mono microphones to stereo camera inputs." But I'm wondering whether their use of plural ("microphoneS") in the description means that one is expected to use two mics and two inputs (whereas the PCM-M10 has only one):

Hosa Technology | Mini Stereo Male to 3-pin XLR | XVM-101F | B&H

Does anyone know of a another specific, tested (and inexpensive) adapter for connecting a single mono shotgun mic to a single, stereo mic input -- without significant loss of sensitivity?

Any other observations or suggestions out there?

[Celloman]

Assuming that you have a good battery inside the AT897, it could be the impedance converter mucking something up. Does the mic take a single AA battery?

Mike

[zi161618]

Thanks, Mike, for the reply. I checked the battery and it seems fine, but maybe I'll replace it again with something different and see what happens. I'm beginning to think that the source of the problem I've described is partly (if not mainly) my expectation for this AT shotgun mic to do more in conjunction with the PCM-M10 than it was designed to do. After all, neither the mic nor the recorder are high-end/professional... In any case, I always have the PCM-M10's built-in condensers to use for omnidirectional recordings, and thus far they have worked great.
- james

[zi161618]

Yes, the AT-897 takes a single AA battery.
- j.

[wrosenkr]

I have two of the Sony PCM-M10s and have been 100% pleased with their performance when using the internal microphones, external professional microphones and the line-in input to make 48-kHz 24-bit recordings.

For the "mic" level input, which is designed only for consumer-type microphones, the Sony manual says, "We recommend you use the Sony ECM-MS957 electret condenser [stereo] microphone." This consumer-type microphone, unlike professional-type microphones, was designed to work with what the manual calls "plug-in power" to power the microphone (set in the menu). This simply powers the microphone for a "mic" level signal that the recorder amplifies internally.

The intended way for users to connect a professional microphone (including the shotgun mentioned in the first question of this thread) to the PCM-M10 is to plug the microphone's balanced XLR cable into a preamp that provides phantom power (I bought a Sound Devices MM-1 for this purpose) and then connect the line-level output of the preamp to the "line in" on the PCM-M10 (using a short Sound Devices cable with XLR female mono to 1/8-in stereo TRS male plug). The professional microphone's mono signal then is recorded perfectly to both stereo tracks on the PCM-M10 with this method.

The signal level output is manually adjustable at the preamp and the signal level input also is manually adjustable on the PCM-M10. The recordings, with level adjusted correctly, are free of electronic noise and have the same full dynamic range as when recording correctly with the internal microphones. The metering and LEDs make this easy.

If I understood the first post correctly, the poster has been trying to match a professional microphone to the consumer mic-level input on the PCM-M10. The mic-level input was not designed for this, but the Sony manual is not especially helpful in distinguishing "plug-in power" from the phantom power used by many professional microphones. Apparently, Sony was trying to explain the operation of this recorder to average consumers without using the terminology familiar to audio professionals.

I am not an audio professional but have read books explaining these differences, making the basic technology fairly simple to apply for my needs. Hope this helps clear up the basic issue.

[Poxican]

Hi all,

First post here, thought I'd drag up this old thread rather than start a new one for the question I've got...

I've just (yesterday) got one of these M10s with the intention of using it to record with the contact microphones I build. They're mono plugs though so I'm having an issue recording in Mono onto the M10. I'd tested them on the Edirol R-09HR which records from the mic perfectly to a mono track, but not so on the M10.

Can anyone clear this up for me? I'm guessing I might have to rewire my mics with stereo plugs? I don't see how this will work though as whats the difference between a mono plug and a stereo plug with the wires split to tip and centre?

I'm a little confused.

[edit] I just had a thought. Because the contact mics are mono anyway, it's only a mono file that I need. I usually edit the files before I catalogue them so saving it as a mono file then is fine, I suppose the main issue is i'd like to be able to monitor using both sides of the headphones as I record.

Sorry I'm not being very clear, it's boxing day and all :p

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by Poxican

Hi all,

First post here, thought I'd drag up this old thread rather than start a new one for the question I've got...

I've just (yesterday) got one of these M10s with the intention of using it to record with the contact microphones I build. They're mono plugs though so I'm having an issue recording in Mono onto the M10. I'd tested them on the Edirol R-09HR which records from the mic perfectly to a mono track, but not so on the M10.

Can anyone clear this up for me? I'm guessing I might have to rewire my mics with stereo plugs? I don't see how this will work though as whats the difference between a mono plug and a stereo plug with the wires split to tip and centre?

I'm a little confused.

[edit] I just had a thought. Because the contact mics are mono anyway, it's only a mono file that I need. I usually edit the files before I catalogue them so saving it as a mono file then is fine, I suppose the main issue is i'd like to be able to monitor using both sides of the headphones as I record.

Sorry I'm not being very clear, it's boxing day and all :p

Simple answer is a headphone adapter (L/R summed, fed to both ears), one mic, one track. Or... a mono-to-stereo adapter on the input (TS->TRS, with the hot wired to tip and ring... unless there are phase or power issues). I'd build a short cable for either, to relieve the strain a solid adapter can place on a (especially a) mini jack.

If the Edirol was working, why did you change?

[Poxican]

I make these mics myself so I think I'll look at rewiring them with the stereo plug the way you describe there.

The Edirol was borrowed from the equipment store at Uni but I decided I wanted my own so I went for the Sony.