PZM Mic On a Piano

[chris319]

I am planning to record a piano by placing a PZM on the inside of the (open) lid, and I need to attach it in a way which is non-destructive to the piano. Has anyone ever tried this?

I have ordered some magnetic rubber sheet which is 1/16" thick and can be cut with a knife. The plan is to cut two pieces of this material which are the same size as the PZM plate. One of these pieces will be glued using silicone adhesive to the rear of the plate. The mic will then be put in position on the inside of the piano lid, and the other magnetic piece will be placed on the opposite side of the piano lid so that the two magnetic sheets attract, effectively clamping the PZM non-destructively to the lid. When finished, the magnets will be separated, hopefully leaving not a mark on the piano lid.

Any reason this wouldn't work?

[jjb]

I wouldn't count on your average 'rubber' magnet attracting enough through a piano lid.

Something wrong with a little black gaff?

[nigel saunders]

Gaffer tape works fine and hasn't damaged either my piano or my pzm's
Are you going to use 2 pzms -gives a nice stereo image, although you need to vary the position of each according to the pitch of the lid.

[chris319]

I'm concerned about tape possibly taking up part of the finish or not retaining its "stick" during the concert (I've heard stories about PZMs coming off during live performances).

I'm planning to use one mic on the piano which will be accompanying solo violinists.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by chris319

I'm concerned about tape possibly taking up part of the finish or not retaining its "stick" during the concert (I've heard stories about PZMs coming off during live performances).

Yes, this has happened to me in the past - a PZM fell off and landed on the strings in the middle of the performance.

Nowadays, if using PZMs or boundary mics., I would put them on the floor underneath the piano (works very well) or use an excellent tie mic. (like a DPA or Sennheiser) on the piano lid. It's easy to stick a tiny mic. on with hypoallergenic tape and it's closeness to the lid turns it into a boundary mic..

I would not now use a normal boundary mic. on the lid. Sticky strong enough to hold it properly is likely to damage the finish, something I would not risk with a piano costing in excess of £100,000.00.


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[chris319]

this has happened to me in the past - a PZM fell off and landed on the strings in the middle of the performance

It must have been you I was thinking of.

Nowadays, if using PZMs or boundary mics., I would put them on the floor underneath the piano (works very well)

You don't get foot or pedal noises?

The magnetic material arrived today. It sticks very well to itself and is probably strong enough to keep a PZM in place -- but, if you put 1/2" or 3/4" of wood in between the magnetic sheets, no joy.

[chris319]

use an excellent tie mic. (like a DPA or Sennheiser) on the piano lid. It's easy to stick a tiny mic. on with hypoallergenic tape and it's closeness to the lid turns it into a boundary mic..

Somewhere around here I have some adhesive putty which is for sticking pictures to walls and is supposed to come off cleanly. That might do a good job of sticking a lightweight lapel mic to a piano lid and not leave a trace.

[7rojo7]

Schoertler comes with putty and is the best that I've tried in this instance

[Sugarnutz]

I used duct-tape in the past, no problems. Any residual glue can be cleaned off with some denatured alcohol. Go ahead and close the lid, you might like it.

[WVUtubadude]

3M makes those wall hooks with the adhesive that you just pull down on when you are ready to remove them. Forget the hooks and just use the adhesive.

[chris319]

Good suggestios all, thank you.

Today I woke up with an inspiration. Remember these?

It is the Sony ECM-51, the famous telescoping electret condenser mic. Last year I had occasion to make a replica of one of these using an Audio Technica AT 803:

Audio-Technica AT803 Lavalier Microphone, Omnidirectional, Condenser, Miniature | Full Compass

My (working) replica is simply an AT803 attached to an 18" tube on one end and an XLR connector on the other. My idea is to attach this to a baby boom and position the mic under the lid where a PZM would go (possibly even touching the lid) thus forming a faux boundary mic. If I had the budget I would use a fancier mic, but the AT803 is already built and ready to go, balanced output and everything.

Good idea or am I on drugs?

[trompetfreak]

Well, You got me curious! Samples please!

[chris319]

No samples yet because the concert is a week away
I can post a sample week after next. The piano will be accompanying violin soloists. I'll try to remember to bring a camera and take pictures, too.

Maybe I'm crazy, or maybe I've spent too many years in live broadcasting, but for every condenser mic I'm also bringing a dynamic mic. If I lose phantom power I'll have a fallback. I'm going to bring a pair of MD421's to back up the main pair, an SM7B for the bass fiddle and an E-V RE55 as my backup piano mic:

Electro-Voice Model RE55

[Ozpeter]

No matter how unlikely damage by any idea you may have for attaching a mic to a piano might be, you would do well to consult the person responsible for the piano in advance to discuss what you have in mind. If it's a hired piano, the hire agreement very probably stipulates that no form of attachment of anything is permitted, at least without specific authorisation. If it's a hall's own piano, they may well have a policy on the matter forming part of the hall's terms and conditions for performances. It's better to ensure that people are in agreement before you assume that they will be, and before you don't have a good play 'b' if they object.

Years ago I was asked to record Dame Moura Lympany's recital at the Royal Festival Hall in London which she gave to celebrate her 60 years of public performances. The brief was to get a good recording without anything showing at all! On that occasion I used an array of four PZMs on the stage, two set wide for ambience and two closer, one near the keyboard end and one near the tail end. The mics were taped down with stage-coloured gaffer tape to make them even less obvious (which of course then made them vulnerable to being stepped on!).

With a bit of judicious post-production it came up ok. Come to think of it, it must have been straight to stereo in those days. Well, it still came up ok.

Not perhaps that useful in connection with the original question but it's there for google to find if someone's doing something roughly related.

[chris319]

Ozpeter, your post makes the idea of a non-adhesive stand mic at the end of a long tube seem even more appealing. I've looked into using gooseneck podium mics but most of them are cardioids and I'm thinking they wouldn't make very good faux-boundary mics.

[jude]

i used to gaffa tape pzm's inside the grand piano in australia's parliment house. not a mark left, and great sound even with the piano open to the shortest stick

[chris319]

Originally Posted by jude

i used to gaffa tape pzm's inside the grand piano in australia's parliment house. not a mark left, and great sound even with the piano open to the shortest stick

Re: gaffer's tape:

Yes, this has happened to me in the past - a PZM fell off and landed on the strings in the middle of the performance.

[studer58]

Originally Posted by chris319

Re: gaffer's tape:

That should be added to the repertoire of the sounds possible from a prepared piano !
Prepared piano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[jude]

Originally Posted by chris319

Re: gaffer's tape:

yeah, only happens if you dont use enough

[Teddy Ray]

Mapleshade Records records with PZMs...and many of their projects are stunning!

Mapleshade Records - About Us

[chris319]

Originally Posted by jude

yeah, only happens if you dont use enough

It only happens during a performance. Gaffer's tape has automatic performance detectors, an unique ability to detect when a live performance is taking place, or when it is live on the air, or during a take in motion picture filming. It won't fail during setup or rehearsal because its automatic performance detectors don't become activated during those times.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by chris319

It only happens during a performance. Gaffer's tape has automatic performance detectors, an unique ability to detect when a live performance is taking place, or when it is live on the air, or during a take in motion picture filming. It won't fail during setup or rehearsal because its automatic performance detectors don't become activated during those times.

LoL - so true.

It's called Murphy's Law.

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