Trumpet, not sure if I'm doing it right

[npulsipher]

I recently started a blog reviewing/instructing of various trumpet method books, and I'm still trying to get a good, true to life recording to help better demonstrate how to practice these exercises. I could just throw a mic up, point my horn straight at it, and record it in mono, but that wouldn't be very helpful to me if I were looking for help.

So, after reading other threads relating to the subect, here's the set up:

2 MXL 990's in XY (don't have any others), about 4' away and pointing the bell about 30 degrees off axis. Recorded into Live with some verb added to make my small apt living room sound less... bad.

This is just a short mulit-tracked duet. My playing isn't great here but any thoughts, comments, criticisms you've got for me, I'll take 'em.

Thanks in advance for your help

[DannyL]

I have been quite fortunate to have worked with some of the greatest Trumpeters known. My favorite mic (in live situations) is a Neuman KM84,
with a large windcreen (I use an SM57 ws w/ a soft rubber collar). Slightly off axis and about a foot away from the bell. I used this with Dizzy Gillespie, and did not have to do anything else.

Miles Davis loved the U47 as I recall. (I read that somewhere, no I never worked with him) An AEA Big Ribbon mic would probably work quite well too. (All AEA ribbon mics use the "Big Ribbon") I have also used a U67, which was pretty nice. Great on tuba as well, by the way.

The common thread in all these mics is that they are all fairly neutral or warm-ish.

If you need a good stereo recording, perhaps you would like an AEA Big Ribbon for the sides and a Schoeps w/ a CK4 capsule for the Mid. If you want to use a condensor mic for the side, use a dual diaphragm mic.

A pair of Schoeps CK4's or Neuman KM 84's in an X/Y config might be nice too.

Regards;
Danny

[rumleymusic]

Using the mics you have. It can be useful to position them completely off axis from the bell. Not much can be gained with all that distortion. In a lot of professional recordings you will see the mic placed either to the side, directly above, or rather far away. (or a combination of either). In small rooms, I have even tried it from behind with good results.

Using a decent amount of high frequency roll off can be a good trick also with SDC's, simulating the response of a ribbon mic.

[npulsipher]

DannyL,
First off, I'm jealous of you for having had the opportunity to work with Dizzy. Great player! How was he to work with?

Thanks for the mic suggestions. Although right now I don't have the funds to buy any new mics, I will definitely keep those in mind for the future. do you have any other mics suggestions that have warm and neutral characteristics but at a slightly lower price?

Rumleymusic,
I'll give some of these techniques a try. Hadn't thought of directly above or behind before. HF roll off to match ribbon characteristics sounds interesting too.

Thanks to both for the info!

[cyjanopan]

Coles 4038 thumbsup but I dont really know price of used one

[klaukholm]

Good trumpet mics are (cheapest first)
Coles 4038
TLM193
RCA44BX
U67
M49

That being said, I would focus on finding good venues to record yourself at with what you have.
Look to fix problems you hear in your recordings by polishing your playing, recording yourself like this will be your greatest teacher if you can stand the agony of hearing yourself. Hearing yourself on tape sucks for most of us, but is immensely valuable.

Keep up the good work!

[npulsipher]

Amen to that klaukholm. Ever since I started this thread and had to listen to myself play it's been torture. I'm not half as good as I thought I was.

I'm sure playing in a decent room would make a drastic improvement. Gotta wait a couple weeks on that though cause my buddy that has the keys to the good hall on campus is on tour in Romainia.

Rumleymusic, I tried some of the different set-ups you suggested and settled on pointing the bell bellow the mics, standing about 6' back. I think adding an HF roll off helped a lot too.

Hopfully I'll get a second round of clips up soon. Just as soon as I have a take that doesn't suck.

[7rojo7]

Beyer M260

[klaukholm]

Dont let the reality of hearing yourself get you down though!
As a teacher, player and professional orchestra audition panelist, I think 90% of the road to improvement is identifying the problem and putting in the required 3-5hrs a day in the shed (pardon the tanglewoodism).
The last 10% is having a teacher to give you some shortcuts.

There is no such thing as talent in the pro world, only different degrees of focus, dedication, discipline and open mindedness.

How old are you, and who do you seek out for lessons?

Never be afraid to call the bigshots of the teaching world and ask for a lesson.
You may not get a lesson right away, but they will give you names of other good teachers that have time for you!

[npulsipher]

Sorry for the big time gap. I've been trying to get access to a nice room for my next sample but everything on campus has been locked up for the summer. I got tired of waiting to post here again (I really want to get a solid set-up locked in) so here'e me in my apt living room again.

XY about 6' up, bell pointed beneth the mics, standing about 4' back, and some HF roll off, trying to match a ribbons response per rumley's suggestion.

again, any comments welcome


klaukholm, thanks for your encouraging words. I'm in college getting my bachelor's in Music Education, so I have 3 or 4 great teachers that I get advice from on a regular basis. Not to mention past teachers who leave open invites for advice and lessons.

Thanks again everyone!

[l.sicilian]

I like the new sample, the recording quality is good too.

[Remoteness]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the Royer R121.
It's my go to mic when it comes to trumpet.
I just love ribbons on "pets."

Other mics (in no particular order) that come to mind are...

TLM170
U67
M149
44BX
4038
M260
M160
M88
SM58
SM57

[amanitas]

Personal trumpet mic favorites in no particular order:

Beyer M88 - great for live work too as it's a dynamic. To my ears absolutely crushes the SM57/58. If you are ever on tour and the club has an M88, insist they give it to you instead of putting it in the kick drum or someplace else where it will be less appreciated.

Beyer 130/160/260etc. - smooth but still edgy enough. Great trumpet mics.

TLM 170!!!!! - this mic rules for cop show trumpet sounds - super clear, no distortion, no high freq. ice pick in your ears, but still keeps all the bite in your sound. Definitely need a good room for this as it's one of those mics that pick up everything and then some, but damn if it don't make for some fine sounding brass recordings.

U87 - can't go wrong here, pretty much sounds good on everything.

414 - see above.

Coles 4038 - probably my current all around favorite right now. Coles 4038+API 512 = match made in heaven for all brass instruments (or at least all of the ones I play: (YouTube - Carina Round Backseat (Official Video) - this is the combo used for all the brass on this song)

Fathead
Little Blondie

particularly when using both of the above - Fathead provides nice warm body to the sound, Blondie gets the top/clarity without being harsh at all. Best part, you can get 2 Blondies and 2 Fatheads for less than 600 bucks.

Just about any RCA ribbon mic in decent condition but of course this will likely break your bank. 44 is killer and classic.

Lots of people love the Royer 121/122/SF12/etc., I think they can be a little too smooth for my taste sometimes.

Of course if you can afford a 47 or a 67 you won't regret it as they are pretty much amazing mics for damn near any source, but again these are bank breakers.

Also FWIW I haven't had a chance to try out the new mic I got from the guy who makes the little blondies on trumpet yet (it's a wooden omni with 2 capsules wired in series) but I'll likely be updating this thread when I do: Sahiaman's Limited Edition Wooden Blondie

If you check out my horn demo (Mushroom Stamp Productions - Audio Samples - go to brass recording demo reel 2010) feel free to ask about any of the tracks on there - I think I remember the mic and pre combo in about 80% of the samples on there.

[npulsipher]

thanks everyone for your continued input about trumpet mics. I've got quite a large wishlist now

Danny, visited your sight and listened to the demo reel. Sounds great! you've got some chops! What can you tell me about the physical set up of those recordings. (mic positioning etc.) Was it the same or similar to some of the other suggested setups? What kind of room were they recorded in?

[sonare]

Having spent MANY years being recorded at my teacher's studio as well as the self-recording torture--- allow me to mention that much of what you are sweating about is at worst counter-productive and at best taking time that could be spent instead with a mouthpiece on the chops. Even if you could "perfectly" record yourself you are at the mercy of the playback system. And the original recording did not take place in an anechoic chamber so there are colorations of the original room-- probably one that was flattering.

The first time I encountered the notion of recording myself was with my teacher in the Chicago Sym and the device was a a Webcor 2-speed open reel machine with a crystal mic. As a vehicle of high-fidelity information it was a dismal failure, but it was no problem to hear uneven sound, bad pitch or rhythm, and a host of other maladies that are the real enemies that mar everyday playing. The most useful thing your quest might yield is if you could record yourself AND the person whose sound and playing you admire the most-- then you can identify the differences you hear. Otherwise you are distracted with the mics, the room, etc etc.

You originally wrote:

I could just throw a mic up, point my horn straight at it, and record it in mono, but that wouldn't be very helpful to me if I were looking for help.

I am suggesting that any recording that can capture playing problems will help if you listen with open ears.

What you hope to do can be fabulously instructive, but if a Webcor and crystal mic in a small room could keep me challenged for years you can accomplish the same thing. When you are preparing to send out audition recordings what you discover now will be valuable-- just don't get distracted now with all the "stuff." Best wishes on your quest!

Rich

[tenor39]

I agree with Rich on this one. I used to record my voice lessons and practice with a portable cassette recorder and a Shure SM81! It was more than enough to hear what I was doing well or not so well.

I might suggest the DPA 4099T for this application. Not only can you use it for your demo's, but it's also one hell of a live mic for your horn.

[amanitas]

Thanks for the kind words.

I'll do my best to remember what all the mics/rooms were:

TOCA - Con Ruido - This was done in the A room at Sounden studios in San Clemente. We did the whole record with a Royer 121 but couldn't get enough bite on this one solo part so we ended up switching it out for a Beyer 160 I think. Mic was probably 1 or 2 feet from the bell of the trumpet.

Topher Mohr - Ruthless - this one was done with the fathead/blondie combo in my studio (aka a carpeted bedroom with a lot of crap in it) - we recorded each horn part with two instruments (ie trumpet/tenor, trombone/bari, flugelhorn/flute) at the same time on opposite sides of the ribbon which was in the middle of the room. The blondie was hanging from a light fixture about 3 feet above the ribbon.

Lenka - The Show - this was done at The Backyard recording studio in Sherman Oaks - I believe it was some sort of Telefunken into an API, not sure if they used room mics. Set up in the corner of a large room (converted garage methinks) facing out into the room. I think I was seated for this one and the mic was 1-2 feet in front of my horn(s).

Joshua Radin - Brand New Day - Sunset Sound. One of the best sounding rooms I've ever played in. U67 into their custom pres (Rob Schnapf, who was producing, reckons they are API-ish), maybe 5 feet in front of the horns, probably 4 feet above the bell.

David Hopkins - Angels in the Satellites - TLM 170, not sure of the pre, guessing Neve. Recorded at the Lair in West LA. Mic was maybe 1-2 feet away from the bell.

A Fine Frenzy - Coming Around - El Dorado in Burbank. Similarly set up to the Lenka track - set up in the corner of a huge room. Don't remember mic or pre, think they might have also had a distant room mic as well.

Built To Spill - Lifes A Dream - Kingsize Soundlabs A room. Royer into Neve. 1-2 feet.

The Ventriloquists - Switchblade - Fathead into Chandler Germanium in a closet.

Elevaters - Lionside - don't remember the mic, think it was going into a UA 6176. Had some sort of portable wardrobe screen behind the mic. Close mic'd.

Spinto Band - Ain't This The Truth - Coles 4038 into I think a Neve. Done in maybe the B or C room at Kingsize. Close mic'd.

Lindsey Ray - Picture Perfect - Royer into Chandler?. Deathstar studios. Wood floored fairly reflective room full of instruments. Close mic'd.

Invengo - Smack - trumpet, trombone, euphonium - I don't remember if this was before or after the 414 started smoking. If it was after then this one was done with an 87. Close mic'd.

Sarah Dashew - Where I Belong - don't remember the mic but pretty sure it was going into a Great River. Close mic'd.

Vivek Shraya - Weaknees - from the album Keys and Machines - trumpet - Fathead into Yamaha EM100/Metasonix TM7 plus blondie into Germanium.

Eric Lilavois - trumpet, trombone - U87 or R84 into Neve 1084 plus maybe a pair of blondies 8 or so feet back going into an API 312. Recorded at Crown City, which is a massive massive long wooden room.

Carina Round - Backseat - Coles into API close micd in a fairly reflective room.

Rilo Kiley - 15 - don't remember mic or pre. Done at Mike Elizondo's home studio, close mic'd, did trumpet and tenor at the same time (2 mics) and then trombone and bari at the same time. If you ask Adam Hawkins who is sometimes seen around these parts, he might remember. I'm tempted to say Wunder CM7, but that's just a guess.

[Ken Walker]

Coles 4038, a Fathead, Royer 121, or a Peluso R14 sound fine for trumpet. Depending on how I want the sound, I use either a BAE 312A or a Manley mono pre.

But to echo a previous poster, if all you want is to improve your practice technique, tossingup a 57 into almost any pre will do you fine. Save the better gear for when you get better!

BTW, nice tone on the second clip. Herb Alpert made a nice living just off of his tone and catchy tunes.

[avebr]

My choices (a bit on the 'darker' side) currently are:

R121
MD441
MK-219 / OktavaMod MK-219 PE (for cap/sordine)
MKH40

You may add a pair of condensers for room tone - if needed.


all the best,
ave.

[npulsipher]

Danny, thanks again on your input. Sorry to make you rack your brain like that. It's encouraging to see that not ever setup has to be ideal in order to get a great sound. Thanks again!

To Rich and others thanks I'll try to remember that I don't always need the perfect sound to get good idea of what's working in my playing and what isn't. I would agree with you as well. Ever since the op I've learned a ton about my playing, even though the recordings aren't perfect.

However, my purpose for starting this thread was not just for my own practice. As I mentioned in the op, I'm starting a blog to help younger players understand how to use various trumpet methods. This includes posting short demonstrations of exercises and techniques. I'm hoping to make this as professional as possible, hence my fretting about getting a good, high quality recording.

Thanks as always!
Nick

[Soundview]

Originally Posted by npulsipher

I recently started a blog reviewing/instructing of various trumpet method books, and I'm still trying to get a good, true to life recording to help better demonstrate how to practice these exercises. I could just throw a mic up, point my horn straight at it, and record it in mono, but that wouldn't be very helpful to me if I were looking for help.

So, after reading other threads relating to the subect, here's the set up:

2 MXL 990's in XY (don't have any others), about 4' away and pointing the bell about 30 degrees off axis. Recorded into Live with some verb added to make my small apt living room sound less... bad.

This is just a short mulit-tracked duet. My playing isn't great here but any thoughts, comments, criticisms you've got for me, I'll take 'em.

Thanks in advance for your help

I just had a knee jerk reaction to one mic recommendation another member posted, where he mentioned an SM58. Vocal mics like the SM58 have presence peaks (to help vocalists) in the place where you do not want "boost" in a trumpets sound. I don't condemn a legendary piece like an SM58 as being unusable, only that the sonic effect of that boost on most trumpets as being undesirable. I have not yet found my perfect setup, but I can say that I have eliminated the general category of vocal mics. Also, studio engineers are accustomed to using a lot of close mic techniques, which for your purpose makes little sense. When was the last time you listened to any brass player with your ear 12" from the bell? Ouch! Since you are not concerned about the bleed from other instruments getting in your mic then move that mic a few feet away. Personally, I like either a really good sounding room-first choice, or a "dead" room to which I'd apply reverb to taste after the session. However, if you are going to have many sessions to do your tracks, pick something that works and use it for all your demos in a particular collection. You will be glad for the consistency. Now, to make you jealous as hell-I'll be recording Wayne Bergeron next week. TM

[Lazerface]

Originally Posted by Soundview

Now, to make you jealous as hell-I'll be recording Wayne Bergeron next week. TM

Damn! That makes me jealous and I'm not a trumpet player!
Thanks for the tip about the SM58's. I was always wondering why I was getting very screechy trumpets in live gigs... Mental note made

[npulsipher]

Originally Posted by Soundview

Now, to make you jealous as hell-I'll be recording Wayne Bergeron next week. TM

You're right. I am jealous. Heard him do a Maynard tribute concert at the Greeley Jazz Fest last year. Incredible player! And then he was followed by the Mingus Big Band. Amazing night!

As far as your comments, one of my first thoughts when I started doing this is I didn't want to close mic it because of that exact reason. When your in a lesson, the worst place to stand is right in front of the bell.