Is there a shop steward in the house? Union rules.

[boojum]

I record a local chorale. They recently finished Mendelssohn's Elijah which I am working on now. The chorale director has told me that some in the orchestra are union and asks how does that affect sales of the CD set of the performance. There is no written contract between the chorale and the hired orchestra. I have no idea what is customary or correct. I am hoping someone here may have an idea or and idea of where to start.

The director thinks I know these things because I come here to ask the questions, so if you can help here, please do.


Cheers

[MichaelPatrick]

I depends on the local, but nearly all of them have a "recording fee" that can accompany a release, and if you don't pay their recording fee you can't expect to get a release for the recorded performance.

[John Brook]

Who's selling the CD? You or the ensemble? Is it to the public at large, or just to members of the ensemble?

[boojum]

Originally Posted by John Brook

Who's selling the CD? You or the ensemble? Is it to the public at large, or just to members of the ensemble?

The ensemble sells the CD's to it's members and other interested folk. This is not going to be on CDBaby or anything like that. It is a small local distribution.

[fifthcircle]

Usually unless the group has an agreement with the Union, it is a non-issue. Technically, if the group is a non-union group and there are AFM members playing in it, they are breaking their agreement to join the union. That being said, classical groups are usually treated with a great deal of lattitude by the AFM.

What is not treated lightly are the recording orchestras for Film, TV and other various commercial applications.

--Ben

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Usually unless the group has an agreement with the Union, it is a non-issue. Technically, if the group is a non-union group and there are AFM members playing in it, they are breaking their agreement to join the union. That being said, classical groups are usually treated with a great deal of lattitude by the AFM.

What is not treated lightly are the recording orchestras for Film, TV and other various commercial applications.

--Ben

Ben, this depends on the local. In our area classical groups are faced with strictures.

[sonare]

There are several questions to clear up:

1) You say the group "recently finished" the work-- was this a concert or sessions?

2) The players must have known that it was recorded. They either do not care if CDs are made or they assume the contractor of the orchestra will "take care of business"

3) If the choral organization wants to pay the players then there are several options-- pay all players a certain amount but less than the appropriate union scale (minimum of 2 hours of Limited Pressing Scale which is set by each local-- the only recording scale that can be set by a local)-- pay all the players Limited Pressing Scale-- or pay only the union players

The implications of each option are obvious.

Once the players are happy the soloists are next-- they may want AGMA session scale (about $50/hr) or some other negotiated amount. It would have been far better to have settled this before the recording.

Finally, even though Mendelssohn died LONG before 1923 the edition that the orchestra played and the choir sang still probably requires the payment of Copyright Mechanicals. The Harry Fox Agency can tell you what the fee is once you decide on the quantity.

Remember that even if you GAVE away the CDs that would not eliminate the requirement to pay the Mechanicals-- but only if the edition falls under current copyright. See Digital Copyright Slider for details.

Rich

[jenkel16]

If this is the recording you were talking about at the Kennedy School, I'm a member of the local that would deal with this. If you want I can put you in touch with the appropriate people to answer any questions.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by sonare

There are several questions to clear up:

1) You say the group "recently finished" the work-- was this a concert or sessions?

2) The players must have known that it was recorded. They either do not care if CDs are made or they assume the contractor of the orchestra will "take care of business"

3) If the choral organization wants to pay the players then there are several options-- pay all players a certain amount but less than the appropriate union scale (minimum of 2 hours of Limited Pressing Scale which is set by each local-- the only recording scale that can be set by a local)-- pay all the players Limited Pressing Scale-- or pay only the union players

The implications of each option are obvious.

Once the players are happy the soloists are next-- they may want AGMA session scale (about $50/hr) or some other negotiated amount. It would have been far better to have settled this before the recording.

Finally, even though Mendelssohn died LONG before 1923 the edition that the orchestra played and the choir sang still probably requires the payment of Copyright Mechanicals. The Harry Fox Agency can tell you what the fee is once you decide on the quantity.

Remember that even if you GAVE away the CDs that would not eliminate the requirement to pay the Mechanicals-- but only if the edition falls under current copyright. See Digital Copyright Slider for details.

Rich

Are you sure Mendelssohn is dead??? LOL


Ben, I am not the business guy. I just show up with recording gear, try to find the sweet spot, hit "record" and then when it is all over I hit "stop." At home I try to make it sweet. And I do not want to get involved iin the business end. I have a feeling the director is finessing me into this and I just do not want the headache. I handle it all now from record to deliver the finished CD's. I need no more work.

There was no agreement before the fact that I know of. I am not sure who is getting paid, other than the union players. They do know they were recorded. I could not hide it. There was a very tall mic stand right in front of the pit. ;o)

The recording is of a performance, live. Yes, 50% of the audience was from the local TB sanatorium and the rest were 7 year-olds unwrapping candy. I think they hire themselves out to live performances but only those which are recorded.

OK, what else do you need to know?

[NorseHorse]

"Dear [Director],

Those are great questions and I'm not really sure what the answer is. This sounds like something you need to run by the orchestra contractor. Printing CDs hasn't been a problem before, but it's a good idea to cover your bases. Let me know what you find out!

Thanks,

Boojum"

[boojum]

I have a note from the director who is writing the instrumentalists. They were all paid non-union wages. They were paid a pittance. Surprise! Likewise the soloists. There is not a lot of pie to be shared around after paying the hall, score rentals, orchestra and soloists.

I do have to explain to the director about the mechanical license. She does not seem to be able to get her mind around it. I will go over it with her again.

I will keep you posted as this unfolds. Please keep me posted with what you learn.

Thanks

[fifthcircle]

In this case, it is obviously a non-union group and therefore union rules do not apply. When somebody is playing in a non-union group and they are a union member, they are technically breaking union rules. In the classical world, this happens all the time- especially with churches, community orchestras, other pickup groups etc... Even here in Los Angeles, where Local 47 is *very* strong, those gigs do not afford Union protection.

This is why I said that it would be a non-issue.

Now, if the group *is* a union group and there is that agreement between the ensemble and the union, the rules change completely. At that point, you need to negotiate with the union a limited pressing contract and the musicians must be paid. The issue is similar in regards to broadcast and other similar showing of that material.

Most union groups will allow an "archival" recording of a performance with the understanding that the recording never sees the light of day. The CDs are delivered to the client and to nobody else. I do this pretty regularly out here. It is not unusual for performers, composers, or conductors to ask for recordings of their performances. When this happens, I refer them to the presenting organization. That way the contractual issues are dealt with through them and I don't have to take responsibility for it. Unfortunately, with a number of those groups, I am told that recordings are *not* allowed out and while it may piss off the musicians, they usually understand and are greatful that I have ethics like that in the long run.

--Ben

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

In this case, it is obviously a non-union group and therefore union rules do not apply. When somebody is playing in a non-union group and they are a union member, they are technically breaking union rules. In the classical world, this happens all the time- especially with churches, community orchestras, other pickup groups etc... Even here in Los Angeles, where Local 47 is *very* strong, those gigs do not afford Union protection.

This is why I said that it would be a non-issue.

Now, if the group *is* a union group and there is that agreement between the ensemble and the union, the rules change completely. At that point, you need to negotiate with the union a limited pressing contract and the musicians must be paid. The issue is similar in regards to broadcast and other similar showing of that material.

Most union groups will allow an "archival" recording of a performance with the understanding that the recording never sees the light of day. The CDs are delivered to the client and to nobody else. I do this pretty regularly out here. It is not unusual for performers, composers, or conductors to ask for recordings of their performances. When this happens, I refer them to the presenting organization. That way the contractual issues are dealt with through them and I don't have to take responsibility for it. Unfortunately, with a number of those groups, I am told that recordings are *not* allowed out and while it may piss off the musicians, they usually understand and are greatful that I have ethics like that in the long run.

--Ben

What happens in LA when a group gets musicians out of the local hall to fill out their sections and get a few ringers?

[joelpatterson]

Ethics? Good Lordy Shannon Dougherty!

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

What happens in LA when a group gets musicians out of the local hall to fill out their sections and get a few ringers?

AFAIK, unless you contract the players through the union, they are moonlighting and are not afforded union protections, If nobody is paying the union its P&W or the union scale they are freelancers.

All the best,
-mark

[krs]

Good communication is always in style, you want to avoid a situation where there is a misunderstanding about what the regulations are.

The person who contracted the orchestra should be in charge of
a) knowing the clauses that may (or may not) concern the gig
b) communicating clearly with all members what the deal is

If s/he doesn't know they should call the local.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by krs

Good communication is always in style, you want to avoid a situation where there is a misunderstanding about what the regulations are.

The person who contracted the orchestra should be in charge of
a) knowing the clauses that may (or may not) concern the gig
b) communicating clearly with all members what the deal is

If s/he doesn't know they should call the local.

Kirk, you are probably right but I think the director is in uncharted waters here. She used to do her gig in Edmonton. ;o) Maybe someone else handled the business end while she was there. I do not know.

But, she has written all the orchestra members and is trying to get that all straightened out. I am trying to get Harry Fox Agency to answer their darned phone. The answering machine keeps saying to call back during business hours, which is what I am doing. Bad business practices. Are they part of BP or AIG?

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by mpdonahue

AFAIK, unless you contract the players through the union, they are moonlighting and are not afforded union protections, If nobody is paying the union its P&W or the union scale they are freelancers.

All the best,
-mark

That is exactly the case...

Generally, the non-union groups aren't going to the union halls for their players. The contractor for the group may know union players, but they are working on their own and get none of the union benefits.

If a union group calls up the union for players, it is as I described.

At least here in LA where there is a very powerful union, the only folks that get the protection are the players that are members on union jobs. As I said before, I do *not* hand out any material on those gigs. It goes only to the client paying the bills. This is part of the reason why it is so rare that I actually post clips and samples here. I am just not allowed to do so.

--Ben

[klaukholm]

Playing a non union gig are grounds for expulsion from the union. It undermines the salaries of professional players by using amateurs that will play for $65 per service, it also undermines the craft by setting the bar at amateur level.

In this case it is not your job to solve this issue IMO.

In europe the unions generally don't care if you mix with amateurs/non union partly because they cannot force professionals to join the union over here.

As a side note, there are some local amateur recordists that get permission to record local church gigs around here. They never obtain permission from the players, and I found out that they actually sell these discs.
This is NOT good practise and is incidentally also illegal.

[jenkel16]

Interestingly enough I had a meeting today at the AFM local in question for our Fair Trade Music campaign. From what I understand of the situation here the orchestra is no different than an indie rock outfit. The members are independent contractors. There is no collective bargaining agreement (if there were all members would be union and the director would at least have a document to reference as to how to handle the situation). The union would enforce any contract that has been filed with it by the members, but there doesn't seem to be one here.

Klaukholm is spot on regarding the negative effects of this type of activity. It is not grounds for expulsion but does have very serious effects on the market going forward. Here locally in Portland, OR. amateurs have lowered the bar so far that it is virtually impossible to make any sort of a living. Most clubs make you pay for their overhead, or pay you in hamburgers and whiskey. Thus Fair Trade Music as a means to recognize businesses that hire musicians fairly. We're gaining momentum and national attention. You can learn more at www.fairtrademusicpdx.org

[boojum]

Graham ^^^^ has explained it as well as anyone. Clear and concise. I do not want to get embroiled in a labor/management discussion as I still like the Wobblies so you know where I would come down on this, at least in theory. As in too many fields there are more applicants than openings. ;o(

I have passed Graham's words on to the chorale director. What this does about the recording rights I do not know. I will find out. And then there is that darned old Harry Fox crowd who are never in the office. I guess if they hired some musicians to work there the phone would at least be answered. ;o)


Cheers

[Thomas W. Bethe]

My thoughts are that this should all have been taken care of BEFORE the recording was scheduled. Now is NOT the time...

I work with a lot of musical organizations who utilize a mix of union and non union players. Most times NO ONE gets paid and they do it for the love of the music.

If it were me I would give one copy of the performance to the conductor or business manager and let them sort things out before they make copies. You do NOT want to get in the middle of this "problem" as it could have repercussions down the road.

We do the duplication for the clients we serve but we also take care of the Harry Fox details for them as well and we charge them for doing the work.

Best of Luck and let us know how it turns out.

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by boojum

Kirk, you are probably right but I think the director is in uncharted waters here. She used to do her gig in Edmonton. ;o) Maybe someone else handled the business end while she was there. I do not know.

But, she has written all the orchestra members and is trying to get that all straightened out. I am trying to get Harry Fox Agency to answer their darned phone. The answering machine keeps saying to call back during business hours, which is what I am doing. Bad business practices. Are they part of BP or AIG?

Harry Fox licences mechanicals ( not performance rights)for Publishers of copyrighted music. Get a copy of the sheet music used, see who the publisher or copyright holder is for that version and then go to :
HFA Songfile Home Page

You can type in the name of the song, find the one used and get the license online if you want to.

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by jenkel16

It is not grounds for expulsion but does have very serious effects on the market going forward. Here locally in Portland, OR. amateurs have lowered the bar so far that it is virtually impossible to make any sort of a living. [/URL]

Interesting,
When I was a member of the AFM in Houston you would get expelled if you worked a non union gig, unless it was specifically sanctioned by the union.
I did 250 perfomances of aint misbehavin with non union members, but it was union sanctioned.
When I subbed with the Houston Symphony you had to be a member to play.
europe is a different story altogether.

[npulsipher]

Sorry for the hijack, but I still don't understand the whole mechanical licence issue. Is it something you have to do for each individual piece, or each album? Maybe I just don't understand copyright in general.

Has anyone got a link to a sight or thread that explains all of this in simple terms so I can stop hijacking this thread?

[boojum]

Re Mechanical License: go to Mechanical Licenses

It is a legal and ethical obligation honored more in the breach. I have not yet gotten a response from HFA for a ballpark idea of what a short run mechanical license, less than 2500 units, would cost.

Yes, this should have all been done before the actual concert. In the future it will be. This is a lesson for me and apparently for some other folks on the board. Since it is I who is going to the woodshed on this one, you all owe me a cold drink for doing it.

[joelpatterson]

You're right, I'll put it in the mail immediately...

[jenkel16]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Interesting,
When I was a member of the AFM in Houston you would get expelled if you worked a non union gig, unless it was specifically sanctioned by the union.
I did 250 perfomances of aint misbehavin with non union members, but it was union sanctioned.
When I subbed with the Houston Symphony you had to be a member to play.
europe is a different story altogether.

When were you in Houston? As I understand it this used to be the case. It pissed alot of people off so they quit doing that. I know a few members of my local that play with non-union groups at times. There was a major shift in the the way the union operated in the late 70s and 80s as a result of a supreme court case revolving around who was responsible for unemployment taxes, if I remember correctly. Essentially it determined that unless there was a collective bargaining agreement the musicians were independent contractors and not subject to union organization. This had drastic effects on the live music industry by opening the flood gates of amateurs and hobbyists diluting the market and driving rates to the floor or below (pay to play). We at Fair Trade Music call it the race to the bottom, where people are more interested in being passingly famous than paying rent. It is actually illegal for the union to represent their members in wage negotiations unless there is a collective agreement. You can still be a member but you're on your own when it comes to negotiating payment terms. Whatever you negotiate they will help enforce if needed, though.
In full disclosure I'm not a shop steward or organizer, just an active member and concerned citizen.


Graham

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by boojum

Re Mechanical License: go to Mechanical Licenses

I have not yet gotten a response from HFA for a ballpark idea of what a short run mechanical license, less than 2500 units, would cost.

All the cost info is on their site.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

All the cost info is on their site.

Steve, yes and no. Elijah is 44 tracks. HFA says for 25 to 2,500 the fee is 9.1 cents plus $13 to $15 processing fee "per song." This could work out to $664 if per song is "per track" which I fear it is. I do not think they are going to offer a mechanical license for $15.091. I am hopeful but seriously doubt that this would happen.

If they would ever park their butts in their office I would be able to get an answer to this. All they are so far, for me, is a website and an answering machine. That's no way to run a business. I just called at 4:00 EDT. I have tried other times, too. Pfffft!