Microphones for choir/orchestra music

[ThrillerSore]

Hi,
I was wondering what the best mic would be for recording groups of musicians or choir singing. I am looking to have 4 or 5 mics that could capture the best sound possible staying within a low budget. Maybe using two diferent types of mics would help? im not to sure. Is there any suggestions that could get me on my way?

There will probably be from about 2 to 35 ish members of the group I am trying to record. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks

[hgen]

One of the writers on SOS magazine records choirs/orchestra he uses and recommends SE2000a, $299 each. Its won more awards than any other mic in that class hands down but I personally never tried one. However I was surprised that he was using them and made a mental note to remember that mic for that application!! Poor mans U89 I'd say.

[ThrillerSore]

So do you think that one SE2000a would do the trick, even with about 30 people? I was looking into something cheap like a CAD CM100 hanging goose neck mic or the Audio-Technica PRO 45 Cardioid Condenser Hanging Mic. Has anybody ever used these? And about how many do you think I will need?

[MrCrowbar]

I would go for a spaced pair of SDCs inside the audience, respecting the 3:1 rule, e.g. 3 meters from the stage and 9 meters apart from each other, to too close to the walls to avoid capturing the phase incoherent reflections and bass.

As the SDCs are rather spaced out (no pun intended), I'd add one LDC right between them to fill the center. The CAD M179 works well for that. You can turn it towards hyper-cardioid or even figure-8 to remove some side wall reflections and add some ambiance.

Add a LDC as a spot mic for the bass section if the SDCs don't deliver the power in the low end.

[erosconpollo]

A pair of Oktava MK012s with multiple caps would be an excellent place to start. They will do a quite acceptable job of recording choirs and small ensembles on a budget. Even a large budget!

[hgen]

Originally Posted by ThrillerSore

So do you think that one SE2000a would do the trick, even with about 30 people? I was looking into something cheap like a CAD CM100 hanging goose neck mic or the Audio-Technica PRO 45 Cardioid Condenser Hanging Mic. Has anybody ever used these? And about how many do you think I will need?

I would only use 2 stereo pairs. 2 hanging perhaps catching the center stage, 2 forward of the stage wider, picking up some of room also. Phase can be a issue, keep everything exactly equidistant with a Tape measure, nice and simple.

You probably need compressors too, choirs are very dynamic and loud so you need a limiter. If you have money then the 2 mics you suggest are cheap rubbish compared to the SE mic.

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by MrCrowbar

I would go for a spaced pair of SDCs inside the audience, respecting the 3:1 rule, e.g. 3 meters from the stage and 9 meters apart from each other, to too close to the walls to avoid capturing the phase incoherent reflections and bass.

This is not a good idea. The 3:1 rule is helpful for minimizing phase problems between individual instruments in a studio or on a stage, but when recording a single instrument (even a large instrument like an organ or choir) with a stereo pair, it is the phase relationship between the two microphones that helps to create your stereo image. By placing them 9 meters apart, you create an uncorrelated phase relationship. This is good for spot mics in a studio or on stage, but you also end up with two "mono" recordings instead of one stereo recording. If you listen back to the material, there will be a hole in the middle of the image. You will hear the choir on the left and on the right, but you will not "see" them in front of you. Adding a center mic can help, but is almost always less convincing than using just two mics.

If you are spot miking certain elements of the choir or orchestra, then the 3:1 rule can come in handy, but for your main pair, take a look at tried and true stereo methods (ORTF, NOS, blumlein, MS, AB) as the starting point for getting a great sound.

Unless you are doing pop material, no compressor is necessary. You can compress ITB a little if needed.

For some good ideas on miking choirs on a budget, check out:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remot...y-cheaply.html
Mobile rig for choral recording - any suggestions?

Here's a recent recording of my own:


The recording above was done with a Sontronics Apollo (visible) in blumlein and two KSM 141s placed on the floor in the balcony in AB. The Apollo sounds great on it's own, and the KSM 141s allow me to dial in the true reverb of the hall. I should note that even at 40 meters away, having the KSM141s spaced about 1m was on the wide side. Next time I'll move them a little closer (or use my Crown SASS which was out on another gig). I've used both the KSM 141s and Apollo on choir and orchestra. The KSM141s will be more flexible for you, but if you are just going to focus on choral music, a stereo ribbon is a worthwhile investment.

[CJ Mastering]

Here are some basic tips for recording a choir. some of this may help you.
Choir recording tips

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

I can't tell you about cheap mics. I have recorded or done live sound for a number of choirs. The room can be a real killer. Because you are distance micing, reflections are a big issue. Mic placement can be critical. If there are instruments involved, again mic choice and placement will be critical. Remember that choirs are sectioned and each section is not always the same level. You have to mic accordingly to get a proper balance among sections.

Usually the intent is to capture the sound as 'naturally' as possible. Mics that exhibit a rough or harsh sound tend to add an 'electronic' sound to the final result, making them useless for the task. Early in my career I tried to use AKG 451s and later 460s or 480s and the results are less than what I would have liked to hear. Work done with Schoeps, Neumanns, and DPAs are much more pleasing.

I've worked with and used to own a pair of MK-012s, and though I found them to be a surprising value and very usable, I'd not like them for this task. I guess it depends upon how critical the sound is. If you are recording the Mendelssohn Choir with the Pittsburgh Symphony there is a certain level of expectation. Maybe the local church choir or some other organization might not be so discriminating, but I try to bring my "A" game to all my work if possible. If the choir is a background to some other major project, the usage is much more forgiving and some elements become less of an issue.

[Soundhunter]

I agree with Norse, the Sontronics Apollo sound superb on choir as does a pair of Sontronics Saturn. The other great thing about the Apollo, being a stereo unit is you need just one stand, no bar and you are in business.

I have also used the Apollo with a pair of Sontronics STC=1 SDC as outriggers with good results

Steve
CanburySound

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

This is not a good idea. The 3:1 rule is helpful for minimizing phase problems between individual instruments in a studio or on a stage, but when recording a single instrument (even a large instrument like an organ or choir) with a stereo pair, it is the phase relationship between the two microphones that helps to create your stereo image. By placing them 9 meters apart, you create an uncorrelated phase relationship. This is good for spot mics in a studio or on stage, but you also end up with two "mono" recordings instead of one stereo recording. If you listen back to the material, there will be a hole in the middle of the image. You will hear the choir on the left and on the right, but you will not "see" them in front of you. Adding a center mic can help, but is almost always less convincing than using just two mics.

Please notice that the poster mentioned a center placed mic as well turning the pair into outriggers/room mic's more or less.

That said I have had a nice distant and relatively diffuse soundstage from a pair of omnis 8 meter apart about 8-10 meter from the choir but without a whole in the middle.


/Peter

[NorseHorse]

Please notice I noticed... The last line of my paragraph addressed the center mic.

I'm very skeptical about your results! Care to share a sample?

[Audiop]

Yes I noticed! ;-)

I think the hole in the middle is more apparant when miking close with wide spacing.

The example is on a CD release and I'm not sure I can post. I'll see.


/Peter

[JonesH]

Originally Posted by Audiop

I think the hole in the middle is more apparant when miking close with wide spacing.
/Peter

Yes, I'd agree. Makes sense
Also, I've experienced sometimes that my ambience mics have made for a surprisingly detailed stereo image considering they were 10 meters away from the ensemble, 7 meters apart. A person walking across the stage could be localized very well.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by ThrillerSore

Hi,
I was wondering what the best mic would be for recording groups of musicians or choir singing. I am looking to have 4 or 5 mics that could capture the best sound possible staying within a low budget. Maybe using two diferent types of mics would help? im not to sure. Is there any suggestions that could get me on my way?

There will probably be from about 2 to 35 ish members of the group I am trying to record. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks

John Eargle, the respected and talented engineer and author, liked an ORTF center pair with omni outriggers for many situations. I would suggest it would work here. You have not said how much you have to spend but two SDC cards and two SDC omnis can be had without breaking the bank. Some on this board are fond or Rodes. I have not worked with that brand other than an old NT-1A I have. It's alright.

[Live Line]

I have used a couple of Audix mics last week for a school play I had to record and they sounded great didnt manage to get the models though, any idears?

looking to try and get some myself so any recomendations would be helpfull, one sound guy I have spoken to swears by the drum mics and said that they do a massive range of diffrent capsules etc.

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by Live Line

I have used a couple of Audix mics last week for a school play I had to record and they sounded great didnt manage to get the models though, any idears?

looking to try and get some myself so any recomendations would be helpfull, one sound guy I have spoken to swears by the drum mics and said that they do a massive range of diffrent capsules etc.

Their best sdc with interchagable capsules is the SCX1
Audix
It uses MBHO caps

JMM