Best DSD to PCM Software

[88man]

Hi Everyone, what is the best software to convert DSD to PCM?... After I bought a new Tascam DV-RA1000HD several months ago as my back up machine, and paying full price, Tascam did a bait-and-switch by telling me that they don't offer the Discwelder Bronze 1000 to their owners by a convenient remark, "we're no longer offering the promotion." I now have a useless "DSD" recorder and no way to do anything with my recordings.

Is there a software package for converting DSD to PCM that I can actually buy, and not have to download?... Will it be compatible with the Tascam DSD files?... I don't want to have to download and pay, or be stuck on the phone with customer service every time for hours. Having an actual program on a DVD disk is the best way to load up into your computer every time you have to reformat the PC, which is often enough for me.

I don't want to record in PCM because that defeats the purpose of having DSD, and besides the A/D converters aren't that great on the unit when I use PCM. Tascam customer/tech support is abysmal. I should have bought Korg, SD, or Nagra instead - what a waste! I could really use your advice here guys!...

Thanks

[hughesmr]

I've only used Korg's Audiogate (ships with their DSD recorders), sounds pretty darned good to me. Might be available as a download on their website.

[MichaelPatrick]

Sorry to hear of your dilemma. I also thought the conversion software was included. It should be included; everyone needs to park their boat now and then! Why sell one without an anchor or dock tie?

[Teddy Ray]

Pyramix works with DSD files, as does Sadie.

[audio ergo sum]

Weiss Saracon

[DarkSky Media]

Originally Posted by hughesmr

I've only used Korg's Audiogate (ships with their DSD recorders), sounds pretty darned good to me. Might be available as a download on their website.

It is available, but IIRC it requires one of their recorders connected via USB (as a quasi dongle) to authoriZe it after installation. Once authorized you can use it without the recorder attached, however.

[DarkSky Media]

Originally Posted by audio ergo sum

Weiss Saracon

Yes. Saracon DSD does a lot of other format conversions as well, and from what I've heard of it, the sound quality is excellent.

[spicemix]

I have the Tascam, and it didn't come with the software...but what's the point of the software? It's not particularly magical, it's just like a Sample Rate Converter, which isn't a great idea either sonically. The Weiss is likely to be the best overall if you need that, but...

The only real benefit for DSD in theory is that it lets you use a digital intermediary format between two analog stages, without the need for decimation filtering. That was true when it was invented and the converters were 1bit native, but now the converters have native bit depths of 5 or more and the DSD format is essentially obsolete for its original intention. Still, a given implementation may in fact sound different (there is a *slight* difference to my ears between DSD and 96KHz PCM on the Tascam, with the DSD having slightly less air but a touch more punch) and you may prefer it. In that case, the only rational thing is to view DSD as a carrier format between you and a mastering engineer who has both DSD playback capability (Sterling, for instance) and an analog processing path.

So once captured on DSD, do no further processing yourself in the digital domain. Because that subverts the entire purpose of the format, and any software workaround you use will likely be no better in this generation than capturing in PCM in the first place: as you will be going from 5bit to 1bit to 24bit, rather than direct from 5bit to 24bit in a tuned closed system.

And have more faith in the Tascam converters in PCM mode. They are essentially Myteks and are quite outstanding (though someone will be along shortly to try to sell you a $500 capacitor upgrade on them ).

Now if only Tascam would redesign that horrendously clunky user interface...

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by spicemix

I have the Tascam, and it didn't come with the software...but what's the point of the software? It's not particularly magical, it's just like a Sample Rate Converter, which isn't a great idea either sonically. The Weiss is likely to be the best overall if you need that, but...

The only real benefit for DSD in theory is that it lets you use a digital intermediary format between two analog stages, without the need for decimation filtering. That was true when it was invented and the converters were 1bit native, but now the converters have native bit depths of 5 or more and the DSD format is essentially obsolete for its original intention. Still, a given implementation may in fact sound different (there is a *slight* difference to my ears between DSD and 96KHz PCM on the Tascam, with the DSD having slightly less air but a touch more punch) and you may prefer it. In that case, the only rational thing is to view DSD as a carrier format between you and a mastering engineer who has both DSD playback capability (Sterling, for instance) and an analog processing path.

So once captured on DSD, do no further processing yourself in the digital domain. Because that subverts the entire purpose of the format, and any software workaround you use will likely be no better in this generation that capturing in PCM in the first place: as you will be going from 5bit to 1bit to 24bit, rather than direct from 5bit to 24bit in a tuned closed system.

And have more faith in the Tascam converters in PCM mode. They are essentially Myteks and are quite outstanding (though someone will be along shortly to try to sell you a $500 capacitor upgrade on them ).

Now if only Tascam would redesign that horrendously clunky user interface...

Yes, the only benefit of DSD comes when it is used converting from analogue tape straight to disc..

[DarkSky Media]

Originally Posted by spicemix

...The only real benefit for DSD in theory is that it lets you use a digital intermediary format between two analog stages, without the need for decimation filtering...

There are several other "real benefits" IMO.

One is that the 5.6MHz DSD captured by the Korg units sounds better than anything I've heard captured at 24/192 - or other PCM formats.

Another is that having captured a performance to DSD, it can subsequently be decimated to a variety of other formats direct from the original, whereas if you capture to PCM, an additional (post-decimation) SRC stage is required. All the formats one can generate from decimation of the original DSD file are effectively originals.

A third is that capturing to DSD in real time and then decimating offline (eg in software) produces a PCM file without the artifacts that can be introduced by hardware SRC's which operate within various practical limitations (esp those that convert in real time) - including the decimation processors in most ADCs.

So while I agree that DSD makes sense as a step between two analogue stages - typically mix and mastering - there are other reasons to consider it.

[88man]

Thank you hughesmr, Michael Patrick, Teddy Ray, audio ergo sum, DSM Interactive,and spicemix for the great advice and separating the marketing from the truth.

For some reason, I thought that recording in DSD format would be superior to recording in 24bit/96k or 192k PCM. Being discouraged, I called Minnetonka 2 days ago and purchased the Discwelder Bronze 1000m for an additional $200, just in case. It seems that Tascam broke off the deal with Minnetonka, and not the other way around. I see that the Tascam unit is also $100 cheaper after they severed ties. It's amazing how everything is related?!....

I record classical acoustic piano from mic-to-preamp-to-recorder. I am also wondering if I should also invest in a A/D converter or go Tascam internal A/D?...
For practical purposes, I may just stick with 24bit/96k PCM, as it will be much better than my current 20bit/44.1k setup that's dithered down to 16bit through UV22 in my Yamaha CDR1000. It would be nice to play DVD-A discs on my Denon 3930ci player.

[MichaelPatrick]

You're welcome! DSD is wonderful but you need high quality converters like DAD, EMM/Meitner or Prism to do it right. It will change your entire workflow, probably making it significantly more complex and less flexible than working with PCM.

I think DSD, done right, is the best it gets. I rented a Sonoma Workstation with Meitner converters for about 6 months and hated to let them go, but I had to because it takes time and lots of money to live at the peak of sonic mountain.

Some day I hope to reconsider and go back to DSD. Then I'll want to know how good or bad the multichannel and stereo converters and portables are. Mytek makes a multichannel converter that may be quite good.

[rumleymusic]

Unfortunatelly it doesn't seem like the market is moving toward DSD recordings anymore. I had a DV-RA1000 when they first came out, and was quite pleased with the sound quality. Though I found DSD recording pretty much pointless, as the practicality of using the data in it's true form was, and still is, just not there. It is not like you can stick a disk in your PC and make a SACD. I don't necessarily agree that DSD-PCM conversion in software is superior to external AD, but I suppose that depends on the AD, and the software. I doubt KORG is on the same level as Pyramix or Weiss.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

Unfortunatelly it doesn't seem like the market is moving toward DSD recordings anymore. I had a DV-RA1000 when they first came out, and was quite pleased with the sound quality. Though I found DSD recording pretty much pointless, as the practicality of using the data in it's true form was, and still is, just not there. It is not like you can stick a disk in your PC and make a SACD. I don't necessarily agree that DSD-PCM conversion in software is superior to external AD, but I suppose that depends on the AD, and the software. I doubt KORG is on the same level as Pyramix or Weiss.

Gus at Super Audio Center told me recently that there are frontend mods for the Korg units that make them sound very good. I'm tempted.

[DarkSky Media]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Gus at Super Audio Center told me recently that there are frontend mods for the Korg units that make them sound very good. I'm tempted.

It's my understanding that those mods relate to the on-board preamps in the MR1000 units (by repute the preamps are reasonable, but not stellar). The mod would only help if you were using the mic in rather than the line in, which already sounds stellar. Or, rather than modding the unit, you can just use outboard pres.

FWIW, the rack unit (MR2000S) has no preamps (it offers line in and digital in only) and I'm not aware of any mod for it. Nor does it need one IMO.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by spicemix

I have the Tascam, and it didn't come with the software...but what's the point of the software? It's not particularly magical, it's just like a Sample Rate Converter, which isn't a great idea either sonically. The Weiss is likely to be the best overall if you need that, but...

The only real benefit for DSD in theory is that it lets you use a digital intermediary format between two analog stages, without the need for decimation filtering. That was true when it was invented and the converters were 1bit native, but now the converters have native bit depths of 5 or more and the DSD format is essentially obsolete for its original intention. Still, a given implementation may in fact sound different (there is a *slight* difference to my ears between DSD and 96KHz PCM on the Tascam, with the DSD having slightly less air but a touch more punch) and you may prefer it. In that case, the only rational thing is to view DSD as a carrier format between you and a mastering engineer who has both DSD playback capability (Sterling, for instance) and an analog processing path.

So once captured on DSD, do no further processing yourself in the digital domain. Because that subverts the entire purpose of the format, and any software workaround you use will likely be no better in this generation that capturing in PCM in the first place: as you will be going from 5bit to 1bit to 24bit, rather than direct from 5bit to 24bit in a tuned closed system.

And have more faith in the Tascam converters in PCM mode. They are essentially Myteks and are quite outstanding (though someone will be along shortly to try to sell you a $500 capacitor upgrade on them ).

Now if only Tascam would redesign that horrendously clunky user interface...

Very good advice!

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by DSM Interactive

It's my understanding that those mods relate to the on-board preamps in the MR1000 units (by repute the preamps are reasonable, but not stellar). The mod would only help if you were using the mic in rather than the line in, which already sounds stellar. Or, rather than modding the unit, you can just use outboard pres.

FWIW, the rack unit (MR2000S) has no preamps (it offers line in and digital in only) and I'm not aware of any mod for it. Nor does it need one IMO.

Thanks, that's good info. I'm going to check out all the mod options and if I learn anything new or different I'll put it here.

Can you elaborate on the line ins? My benchmark sonically for DSD is the EMM/Meitner ADC. I think I got spoiled by using them for awhile.

[DarkSky Media]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Can you elaborate on the line ins? My benchmark sonically for DSD is the EMM/Meitner ADC. I think I got spoiled by using them for awhile.

On the MR1000, the line inputs share a combo connector with the Mic Pre input sockets - the TRS connection accepts line level while the female XLR connection passes to the mic pre. This saves some space but has some downsides. I have had no call to use the mic pres on these units, but I understand they are not up to the same standard sonically as the line inputs provide, which is top class.

I now own the MR2000S, which as noted above, has no mic pres. It's line level inputs are as good or better than those found on the MR1000 IMO.

[Yannick]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

My benchmark sonically for DSD is the EMM/Meitner ADC. I think I got spoiled by using them for awhile.

IMO you would have been spoiled as easily using the Meitner in PCM mode.

For what it is worth, my Benchmarkmedia DAC1 (playing the CD layer) beats my Denon SACD player (playing the DSD layer) ...

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by Yannick

IMO you would have been spoiled as easily using the Meitner in PCM mode.

For what it is worth, my Benchmarkmedia DAC1 (playing the CD layer) beats my Denon SACD player (playing the DSD layer) ...

Yannick,

I'm not surprised. I use a Benchmark DAC1 for reference on playback mixes and "masters."

Do you think the quality difference is the Denon DAC or the SACDs you're playing?

DSD quality depends on the entire process. I think there's nothing special about DSD that's been converted to PCM for DSP processing; it needs to be pure DSD from start to finish to be "organic," or free of decimation artifacts. I'd bet a small portion of SACDs qualify as pure DSD.

http://www.beis.de/Elektronik/DeltaS...eltaSigma.html

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by DSM Interactive

Yes. Saracon DSD does a lot of other format conversions as well, and from what I've heard of it, the sound quality is excellent.

at 1000 bucks, you aren't too off from Pyramix, and Pyramix will do a hell of a lot more than dither/src

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Yannick,

I'm not surprised. I use a Benchmark DAC1 for reference on playback mixes and "masters."

Do you think the quality difference is the Denon DAC or the SACDs you're playing?

DSD quality depends on the entire process. I think there's nothing special about DSD that's been converted to PCM for DSP processing; it needs to be pure DSD from start to finish to be "organic," or free of decimation artifacts. I'd bet a small portion of SACDs qualify as pure DSD.

An Introduction to Delta Sigma Converters

DSD is in its place in one (1) application: Mastering from analogue. When the recording chain is completely analogue, you can feed the audio from the analogue mastering into a DSD A/D converter and cut that signal straight onto a disc without any further processing. It is in this application that DSD can be viewed as pretty transparent. When you convert the signal twice, however (such as when using a DSD recorder as the tracking medium), the second conversion is no longer transparent, due to the HF noise present in the source signal hitting a second analogue deltasigma modulator.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

DSD is in its place in one (1) application: Mastering from analogue. When the recording chain is completely analogue, you can feed the audio from the analogue mastering into a DSD A/D converter and cut that signal straight onto a disc without any further processing. It is in this application that DSD can be viewed as pretty transparent. When you convert the signal twice, however (such as when using a DSD recorder as the tracking medium), the second conversion is no longer transparent, due to the HF noise present in the source signal hitting a second analogue deltasigma modulator.

Teddy, your words or quoted?

[Dave Ferris]

Originally Posted by 88man

I record classical acoustic piano from mic-to-preamp-to-recorder. I am also wondering if I should also invest in a A/D converter or go Tascam internal A/D?...
For practical purposes, I may just stick with 24bit/96k PCM, as it will be much better than my current 20bit/44.1k setup that's dithered down to 16bit through UV22 in my Yamaha CDR1000.

George, did you consider the Jim Williams/Audio Upgrade mod to the Tascam's A/D-D/A ?

Maybe you were put off by my saga. It was more related to the Tascam machine itself (PCB board) then anything connected with Jim.

I think converter wise it sounds stellar. I sold off my Cranesong Spider because I thought the Tascam with the JW mod sounded sweeter then the Cranesong A/D. I liked the sound of the JW modded Soundcraft Delta 200 pres better then the "Flamigo"/Cranesong too.

A fellow on the GS classifieds is selling his JW modded Tascam and thought it has a more open top end then his Radar.

I know it's a pia to ship to Ca. and then wait for who knows how long, but for $237 I think it's a great deal.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Teddy, your words or quoted?

quoted..

Bruno Putzeys, expert on all things digital, former Engineering head at Phillips

[DSD_Mastering]

We use both the MR2000s and the Tascam DV-RA1000HD w/ Meitner converters for location recording, tape capture and mastering. There are quite a few studios dumping their 2-track mix to DSD.

Yes, Saracon is much better than AudioGate or Discwelder.



Regards,

[DarkSky Media]

Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering

We use both the MR2000s and the Tascam DV-RA1000HD w/ Meitner converters for location recording, tape capture and mastering. There are quite a few studios dumping their 2-track mix to DSD.

Yes, Saracon is much better than AudioGate or Discwelder.



Regards,

Interesting comments, Bruce.

How do you find that the Tascam/Meitner combo holds up against the MR2000S?

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by DarkSky Media

Interesting comments, Bruce.

How do you find that the Tascam/Meitner combo holds up against the MR2000S?

We really like the Tascam/Meitner combo. It has a good vibe and we try to use it most of the time. We use the Korg for convenience because it so portable and less costly. Both are great, but the Tascam/Meitner gets the most use.

Regards,

[CPTenorII]

Originally Posted by DarkSky Media

It's my understanding that those mods relate to the on-board preamps in the MR1000 units (by repute the preamps are reasonable, but not stellar). The mod would only help if you were using the mic in rather than the line in, which already sounds stellar. Or, rather than modding the unit, you can just use outboard pres.

FWIW, the rack unit (MR2000S) has no preamps (it offers line in and digital in only) and I'm not aware of any mod for it. Nor does it need one IMO.

If I'm not mistaken, all inputs on the MR-1000 go through the preamp stage in some fashion. I believe this is why the line inputs are bit noisier than other recorders. I am looking to get my MR-1000 modded. I want to have the line inputs go straight to the converters through first-class electronics and wires.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by CPTenorII

If I'm not mistaken, all inputs on the MR-1000 go through the preamp stage in some fashion. I believe this is why the line inputs are bit noisier than other recorders. I am looking to get my MR-1000 modded. I want to have the line inputs go straight to the converters through first-class electronics and wires.

So if you want "first class" electronics, why don't you buy a "first class" box to begin with? Hell, skip all the nonsense and go straight to Sonoma.


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