PA for live pop music

[cowboycurtis]

I am a long time professional musician with little knowledge of PA for live

I need suggestions for a PA system for a future project

vocals
2 keyboards
prerecorded drums bass , "sweetening" ( for extra points.. how old am I? )

Personally my experiences with sound men is not too encouraging.
They get it close to right less than half the time.

For one show, this is unacceptable.
I guess I have to learn more about PA.

I have been speaking to various musicians and engineers about what gear to get.

Just a kind of weird thought came to me
Though not very popular at least for higher end, and because a budget is involved
I have to choose between higher quality and something like more stuff of a midling quality

I am thinking
6 to 10 JBL G2 or G3 15" Eons
Maybe 2 subs
and that's it

I offer this thread as an opportunity to hear diverse opinions.
Not arguing!

I visualize most of the speakers slightly behind me, as opposed to in front of me a veritable wall of sound,
10 JBLs can purr alone without any single area of stage being deafeningly loud.
Like a carpet of sound.

And no, I am not too worried about everyone hearing the band at higher levels- just mainly in front of the band. I find ppl like to socialize too.
Too loud is not great for talking.

Whether 200 ppl or 500 is a very rough guesstimate, so don't get to hung up about the size of the room.

Think of this in an abstract way please. If I have to feed the sound to the house I guess I will cross that bridge, but for now just enter in a discussion about the virtues and cons of a very homogenous system
10 Eons with 2 subs to help out the wimpy low end!!!

I do have considerable time to decide.

Some high in the air
others on the ground, and so on.

at 700 a piece thats $7000 and 4000 watts . Some ppl I know hate the Eon, but some tolerate and even like them. I know there are better sound cabs/amps but they are more money.

The general db level of the music will not be too loud, kind of moderately loud as a ball park.

I hope this is entertaining, original and educational for us all.


Thank you

[AlexK]

More speakers doesn't = better sound!!!

Depending on whether you can do this in the venue, you need to get your speakers up really high and point them down into the audience - this stops you from getting that 'localised' sound.

I would strongly suggest speaking to a PA rental company. No offense, but it sounds as though you could be bit of a loaded gun when it comes to your understanding of good PA (honestly meant in the nicest way possible).

A lot of PA guys get it wrong, just like studio engineers, but a lot of them get it VERY right. I've heard good PA which sounds as good as a very decent hifi system, it's just all about using the right kit, and knowing how to use it.

A bank of 10 JBL EONs (especially the 15" version, avoid 15" mid-top speakers!) is going to sound goddamn dreadful.

[cowboycurtis]

You made a nice variety of observations, thank you ( I live about 20 miles from another Cardiff.. but in San Diego! )

I think it's called inverse proportion.. but as little as I know about live sound, I do know something about music! Perhaps to some engineers, a kind of idiot savant!
May I ask, In YOUR opinion:
Is "localized sound" always a bad ( unmusical ) thing?
Could you describe what localized sound means to you? Is "localized" the opposite of the way recordings ( of the past few decades ) sound, kind of surround sound, as opposed to in your face, flat localized??

If this is true, I say this, I want both. Rhythm kind of local, some rhythm in the larger more spread field too. Does that make sense?

Eon 15's:
I have heard much criticism of the mids in the Eon, yes.

You said multi speakers doesn't mean better sound.
But how else does one get a big sound?
My dream system has always been many speakers ( on the ground and in the air ) all over the stage
with no single speaker very loud.

As a for instance of the opposite ( and if this is apples oranges I apologize ) of many speakers:
I have played w a few bands that use ONE Bose L1 model 2 system.
The problem with using one ( which is not what Bose suggests ) L1 configuration, is it has to be bloody LOUD near that speaker... anyone near it will be suffering.

I think 5 or so Bose L1 would be much better. Turn them down and get a velvet carpet of sound.

That is around 13000 dollars though, and the punchy bass frequencies are still not ideal.

Soundmen
I am sure ( I am thinking of one ) there are great sound men/ companies, but more, are mediocre than not. That is my experience, as well as musicians I know.

A friend of mine who has vastly more experience than I with PA, told me he likes all the PA behind him ( I did not hear his explanation about vocal feedback ) .
I think speakers high in the air is a good thing, but I want speakers on the ground for bass drums and rhythm too.

I hope we can continue this conversation.

[AlexK]

Every time you add in another speaker, you increase the amount of nodes/comb filtering.

You just end up with a really diffuse sound which is 'omnipresent' in the room (NOT what you want, despite what you think).

What you want are constant directivity speakers with as few speakers as possible overlapping. As soon as you overlap speakers you destroy the transients/wavefront to the sound, and cause all sorts of frequency response issues...

If as many speakers as possible all over the stage was the best way to do it, that'd be the way it was done. If you add two speakers together, you get 3dB of extra volume overall (6dB at some lower frequencies, and you actually completely cancel out other frequencies).

Believe me, keep things simple. A wall of speakers will sound like a wall of sound with no definition to anything.

What do you mean big a 'big sound'?

[cowboycurtis]

AlexK
I don't know how to use words to better define big or omnipresent. I'm sorry about that.
Maybe the word surround sound?!

We started with my specific, stab-in-the-dark.. 10 Jbl's whim.
Ok, what might be yours? I realize the room. the number of ppl, the genre even, are amorphous in my fantasy; but just go along with this abstract for a bit more please thumbsup

Let's say, two keyboardists
two vocals
tracks
and maybe guitar and maybe sax.. but let's leave guitar and sax out for the sake of simplicity!

One soundman I know, likes to practically turn off our monitors with most sound in mains, this is good for him of course, but I do not like the effect on stage, it feels hollow, you can't hear sibilance.
I have always noted, I like to hear my sound source coming from ground level , left, behind me, right and in the air, where I am still aware that the bass part I play is coming from low to the ground, for punch.
For Organ, 2 Leslie's, or if leslie sim, 2 speakers left right.
Strings pads etc, from all around me, but controllable: how much in the air, to the left , to the right at ground level ( I apologize if I am using wrong terms... pan??!)
Some sounds I prefer to be more ( Localized, like a boxy Fender amp for Rhodes or guitar ) directional, mainly low to the ground, notably bass, bass drum, percussion, rhythm guitar, and like that.
The remaining sounds I like "omnipresent"!
Does this make sense to you? I have played upward of 10,000 gigs, including studio work and concerts etc. But I never took the time to learn much about Live sound.

I hope gearslutz is the right forum for this kind of topic. I appreciate your help. Thank you again.

[jjb]

Honesty? Ask around and find a good sound guy/company. Then when you hire them, work WITH them, they're not the enemy.

[AlexK]

Gearslutz isn't really the right website for this - you want something like BlueRooms to discuss PA, or Speakerplans.

Believe me though when I say you're barking up the wrong tree with loads of PA speakers - they'll all interfere with each other. The sound you're talking about was being achieved during the 70s by stacking huge numbers of speakers together. Those sorts of setups generally sound awful...

[badhorsie777]

too many speakers... def. go with an expert. Maybe one that costs more, if you've had many bad experiences.

-Matt

[cowboycurtis]

Someone explain why, for instance, John Mayer uses so many monitors, plus in ear, plus his fender amps or whatever?

What am I missing?

[mixedupsteve]

Having a bunch of speakers is fine provided they all put out something different. When a band wants a general wash of sound across the stage they go with sidefills, 2 speakers only on the corners. Sometimes performers use IEMs and monitors because the monitors let them feel the sound. Sometimes bands use both because one player likes IEMs and others don't.

[badhorsie777]

Originally Posted by cowboycurtis

Someone explain why, for instance, John Mayer uses so many monitors, plus in ear, plus his fender amps or whatever?

What am I missing?

the basics. no disrespect intended, but your concept (and choice of g2/g3's) will be tons of trouble and lack the polish you're trying to achieve. Why many monitors? even coverage and he apparently enjoys the sound/feel. Why in ear? more precise monitoring and possibly click cues. why amps? that's where his sound comes from. All three are needed for what he's trying to do. Notice all of them are not the same thing pointed in the same direction.

So - go with an expert. Or buy a better book than whatever you've been reading.

-matt

[cowboycurtis]

"Go with an expert".
Ok
no experts here @ gearslutz?
10,000 grand
What gear would you recommend?
I left something else out: as I think about this... I want to own the PA for the purpose of practicing with it, and learning how to use it, and get my ears and technique used to it. A PA is a part of a musicians technique.. at least to me.

I suggested the less than perfect Eon 15's because they cost 700 bucks for 400 watts with almost full range, and yes they have that frequency from the horn that is less than desirable ( can't that be attenuated ?)
$7000 bucks plus a xx$$ mixer and 2 subs ( I own a single 2x15 sub , and a dbx stereo 31 band eq , and one 600 watt amp, and two smaller mixers plus I forgot I have an Alessis Studio 32 mixer that was given to me )
And unfortunately this thread of mine has blurred the distinction between mains and monitors.

So, make a "counter offer"! What speaker amp mixer monitors combo come to mind in the 10 grand area that will be comparable "big sound wise"
to the less than loved JBL 15 G2 or G3?

off topic we just had a 4.8 earthquake here in Baja Mexico.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by cowboycurtis

"Go with an expert".
Ok
no experts here @ gearslutz?
10,000 grand
What gear would you recommend?
I left something else out: as I think about this... I want to own the PA for the purpose of practicing with it, and learning how to use it, and get my ears and technique used to it. A PA is a part of a musicians technique.. at least to me.

I suggested the less than perfect Eon 15's because they cost 700 bucks for 400 watts with almost full range, and yes they have that frequency from the horn that is less than desirable ( can't that be attenuated ?)
$7000 bucks plus a xx$$ mixer and 2 subs ( I own a single 2x15 sub , and a dbx stereo 31 band eq , and one 600 watt amp, and two smaller mixers plus I forgot I have an Alessis Studio 32 mixer that was given to me )
And unfortunately this thread of mine has blurred the distinction between mains and monitors.

So, make a "counter offer"! What speaker amp mixer monitors combo come to mind in the 10 grand area that will be comparable "big sound wise"
to the less than loved JBL 15 G2 or G3?

off topic we just had a 4.8 earthquake here in Baja Mexico.

Your problem is that your approach is all wrong. Sure there are plenty of average (or even worse than aerage) live sound engineers out there. Live sound is a different discipline in comparison to home recording. $10,000 isn't going to buy you a decent club system, and covering 500 + people will cost a whole lot more (if you are considering doing it properly).

Most of the major manufacturers make pretty decent gear these days, a lot more (particularly with PA) comes down to how it is deployed and that is where the real skill with live sound comes. I've heard average mixes sound acceptable because the system has been well set-up and teched, on other occasions with badly teched out systems, no FOH engineer is going to be able to get anything useful out. I would buy a good "speakers on sticks" system, probably self powered these days, with a small mixer for really small dates, anything bigger find yourself a good pro that you trust who can help you get your sound.

Roland

[James Lehmann]

It's been a while since I've done much gigging but when I did I was never less than impressed with Turbosound PA equipment, to the point where I would always ask for it for the band. Mixer-wise I'm comfortable with most stuff (above a certain cut-off line of budget cr*p) - if I was investing in a new mid-level system I'd probably go with a Midas Venice, lots of board for not much money.

Both of these originally British companies appear to have been swallowed up by giant European conglomerates in recent years - I cannot say whether this has affected quality and reputation or not, but it's a factor I'd definitely be investigating before putting down $10k.

[AlexK]

Rent, don't buy. I know it's really, really nice to own the system, but honestly, you're just gonna cost yourself huge amounts of money. PA rental companies exist for a reason...

A proper PA to cover 500 is going to cost far more than ten grand...

[Barnabas]

If you like the look of a wall of 10 Eons, then run each sound source to a separate speaker. (vocal 1 to speaker 1, vocal 2 to speaker 2, keyboard to speakers 3 and 4, etc.) This would eliminate the dead spots in the audience caused by multiple speakers overlapping with the same sound at a slight delay. You could also bus the bass and possibly the keyboard to the subs.

Eons and similar speakers are not designed to have multiple speakers next to each other. They have wide dispersion patterns that do not sound good when overlapped.

Two Eons, one on each side of the stage should sound better than having a wall of 10 Eons all producing the same sound.

And if you get just two speakers, maybe you could spend a little more money and get something better then the Eons.

Do a search on comb filtering, speaker phasing, etc. Find a better discussion board that deals with PA systems, rather then this location recording board. Contact JBL and ask their opinion of your proposal. Find a community college or technical school that teaches sound reinforcement and take a class. Read the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook. Volunteer to work with a local PA crew. Rent 10 Eons and try it out. Take a physics class that deals with wave interference.

[Dave Ferris]

Check out the EV ZX5A. 15" two way. A lotta speaker for the dough. And especially for a plastic box.

For birch cabs, RCF NX M12 & M15As. If you have the money the RCF TT22 & 25-As are even nicer.

Both the EVs and RCFs are WAY above Eon/Mackie quality. And would put you closer to L' Acoustics/Meyer territory without having to spend the real big bucks.
Turbosound has an excellent rep too has James mentioned. Try and get more "Pro Audio" stuff has opposed to "MI" stuff.

With the a pair of the RCF 12" cabs on poles you could probably cover (depending on the room acoustics, room configuration and style of music) 250 people, maybe a slightly larger throng with the 15"s.

If you are dealing with a bigger venue and audience , take the advice mentioned and rent or better, hire a sound company that has good stuff with intelligent FOH engineers.
Trying to cover something big that you aren't qualified for will just take away your time and effort that should be put into playing the music. You'll be in over your head and add unneeded stress, it's not worth the hassle at that point.
Really....I've been there.

[Don S]

I understand your frustration. How are you going to learn the gear if you rent and get little time on decent gear. I'm a big believer in knowing your gear intimately. I suspect (because I don't do live sound very much) that if you learn how to make an entry level system sound good, you will understand and appreciate a higher end (and higher powered) system and learn how to make it sound great.
I like this forum. Start there for Q and A. Lot's of good people and tons of experience. As someone else pointed out, there's some really good gear out there in your budget.
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