Getting that Toscanini Tone

[bash]

My employer is a classical concert pianist who records an album every year. I am not an audio engineer but I do project studio stuff and knowing this, he recently expressed disappointment with the sound of his recent recordings and asked my advice. Those were made variously with Neumanns and Schoeps condensers through John Hardys into PT using spaced pair mic placement a few feet out from the front edge of the stage, about 12 feet high, to record the orchestra. It sounds to me like he's been getting the best of accepted modern orchestral recording; clean, balanced and unprocessed.

But apparently he wants more tonal character.

When pressed as to what he doesn't like about his recent recordings, the best I can get out of him is he loves the tone of the old Toscanini recordings of the NBC Orchestra. What little information I could find through Google searches seems to indicate those recordings were done mostly with a single RCA ribbon mic located above Toscanini, 16 feet above the stage. If I were to try to replicate that sound, what modern ribbon mic would be a suitable substitute?

Thanks in advance for any insights into technique and gear required to reproduce that characteristic tone from that era.

[krs]

A key ingredient to that sound is fear and a lack of union regulations

[chris319]

AEA R44 Series Studio Ribbon Microphone – Products – AEA Big Ribbon Mics™ and Mic Preamps

(Hint: They're not cheap.)

[Corran]

Before you start doing a mono recording I'd just try a good stereo ribbon mic or pair of mics, like the Royer SF-12, into a colored preamp possibly and see what he thinks.

If he prefers a mono recording then I think you/he needs to reevaluate their audience. If it's just for his enjoyment I guess let him have it.

Also if you could use an M-S technique with that stereo ribbon to have both a mono and stereo mix, and show him both...might be a good thing.

[chris319]

Bryan, you used the "m" word.

[NorseHorse]

Hahaha. Yes, Chris. I thought mono recordings were banned.

Anyway, to the OP, I think you need to do a little experimenting. Perhaps rent one of these: Sontronics - Apollo phantom-powered stereo ribbon microphone

[Corran]

OH NO

[boojum]

I would suggest that you ask the user to supply you with an example of what he wants. Otherwise you are possibly on an endless guessing game. Users do not always know what they are talkiing about. You didn't hear that from me.

[bash]

Thanks for the help so far. Specifically I want the best of old and new. That's how I'm interpreting what he's trying to say. I'm not really trying to nail that "vintage" sound as much as understand how to recreate it then update it with modern techniques, gear and playback medium to get him back to a contented state regarding his recordings.

I agree; a stereo mic is probably going to benefit me greater than two singles. I almost pulled the trigger on the Cascade X-15 based solely on the site clips of the Disney brass players. Other than renting (which is the best choice), anyone have other experience with sub-$1000 stereo ribbons in case I wanted to use this experiment as an opportunity to add to my own mic collection? Also, any thoughts one whether the Hardy M-1s will drive a passive ribbon sufficiently?

[Corran]

If you need to amp up the passive ribbons more than your pre can do, get a couple of these:

OktavaMod - Shop

Money well spent, in my opinion.

As for mic suggestions, all of the ones that look like Royer knock-offs are the same Chinese-made stereo ribbon pretty much. The Cascade has better QC supposedly, but I have no experience with them. The Apollo that Christian suggested seems nice by the clips he has showed me.

Personally, I own a vintage Bang & Olufsen BM-5 stereo ribbon that has been drastically modified. However, I did use it a few times before the mod on orchestra and I really liked it (still like it after the mod too, but I use it mostly on choral things lately). You can find a used one on ebay occasionally for $500-$700. But it's vintage so you run the risk of DOA's, etc....

If you can afford it, the Royer SF-12 might be the way to go...say a couple in the classifieds go for around $1800 I think. And if you don't want to spend big bucks, just get one of the Chinese ones and try it out.

[7rojo7]

Stereo array on thr Orch, Mono spot (ribbon) on the piano

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by krs

A key ingredient to that sound is fear and a lack of union regulations

In a way you have a point, BSO under Kouss. had similar qualities and similar conditions.

A large part of the sound was a different style of string playing. They are all playing gut strings.
That aside, you will not be able to copy the sound of a given orchestra by copying the recording rig. Orchestras of that era had very distinct styles and sonic qualities. This is becoming a thing of the past with new hiring practises and changes in the professional training. A notable exception is still the Vienna phil IMO.

[John Hardy]

Also, any thoughts one whether the Hardy M-1s will drive a passive ribbon sufficiently?

The maximum gain of the M-1 is normally 60dB. I have modified quite a few of them for either 66 or 70dB of maximum gain. There is a single resistor that determines the maximum gain, so it is easy to modify. I normally don't charge for this.

The more extreme way to go is to use the Jensen Twin Servo 990 Mic Preamp. It is a two-stage mic preamp, using two 990C op-amps in series with each other. Each of the two 990C op-amps provides half as much gain as the single 990C of the M-1, so you can get a bit more bandwidth and a bit less distortion. Even then, the normal maximum gain of the Jensen Twin Servo is 60dB, but it is also easily modified and perhaps somewhat more suitable for higher gains. Customers with the modified M-1 preamps seem to be very happy with them though.

John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
The John Hardy Co. Home

[RobAnderson]

Hi John Hardy! I have to say that your M-2 remains my desert-island preamp (not ever having the opportunity to use the Twin-Servo).

To the OP:

I think you should try to figure out what it is that the conductor likes about Toscanini's recordings. Perhaps he is listening to musical elements, not sonic ones. In which case, the problem may not be the mic's or the mic amps, or even the recording techniques that are used, but with the source itself - acoustics, tuning, musicians who are not clear on something - all of these things can make the best equipment "sound bad" from a tonal point of view.

From what little I know about Toscanini's recordings, most of these were done in the dead acoustics of NBC studio's, and the string sound was rather bright, even strident - perhaps the conductor likes a more brilliant sound with less reverberation? Maybe try using KM130's or Schoeps MK3 and record in a large space with a dryer acoustic.

I don't know for sure whether or not these recordings were in fact done with ribbons, but Mercury's early mono orchestra recordings were done with a single Altec 639, so that seems to be a good assumption. However, the 639 was a multi-pattern ribbon mic with omni, cardioid and Fig.8 patterns - I don't know what pattern might have been used and I don't think that there is a modern ribbon mic that can do this. Later, they switched to using a single U47 when it became available.

Here's a little more on the 639:
http://www.coutant.org/altec639/index.html

Perhaps he prefers a closer-mic aesthetic. Are there any "modern" orchestra recordings that he likes?

[krs]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

In a way you have a point, BSO under Kouss. had similar qualities and similar conditions.

A large part of the sound was a different style of string playing. They are all playing gut strings.
That aside, you will not be able to copy the sound of a given orchestra by copying the recording rig. Orchestras of that era had very distinct styles and sonic qualities. This is becoming a thing of the past with new hiring practises and changes in the professional training. A notable exception is still the Vienna phil IMO.

all true

[opegas]

you want to see if he likes the recordings coming out of Telarc. They are moving more and more toward ribbons in the RCA style for orchestral stuff. They use very clean transparent(uncolored) preamps.

[RobAnderson]

I would describe most early orchestral recordings as anything but transparent. (So would Toscanini I think: ironically, it has been said that he was rather displeased with the sound of many of his early recordings)

Also, since most were recorded in mono, they were generally looking for as dead an acoustic as possible. To me Telarc is the antithesis of this aesthetic.

I'd bet he likes Deutsche Grammophon over Telarc - the brighter, close mic'ed immediacy in the sound over the "warmer," more distant, "blended" sound.

[boojum]

It looks as if you will still be guessing what this fellow has in his head as Toscanini. Can you ask him to tell you his current favorite say three CD's so that you have a real physical source to go to. Otherwise you are guessing as to what this fellow thinks Toscanini sound is.

Just my two cents, but I have been on wild goose chases for users too often. Have him show you.

[chris319]

The Cascade has better QC supposedly, but I have no experience with them.

I have experience with them and I won't go near them. The only under-$1,000 ribbon I would consider are the Shinyboxes (apologies if I am repeating myself).

[opegas]

You can kind of guess at the sound knowing its Toscanini and NBC.I would say that if you really wanted to recreate the sound of those early recordings, you probably really want to listen to the ones he likes. I think toscanini worked with NBC for quite some time so the sound of stuff in the 30s would be different that the 50s. They probably were using the most high tech stuff of the time with RCA cameras preamps etc. whatever was new. If you really wanted to recreate that you would want that old stuff too. I think the recording media of the time would be the real issue with getting that sound. I have to disagree with the DG comment. DG is as far from what they did back then as I think you can get. Multiple close mics on everything with artificial re verb is the opposite of a single place mic for mono to balance the orchestra and room.
But if the real question is can you get that old 44 sound from a new AEA 44 than the answer is Yes!!!

[pkautzsch]

ImhE, when (classical) musicians talk about the "sound" of a recording, they don't mean frequency response, wet/dry ratio, stereo image, or dynamics.
What they mean in most cases is actually the signature "sound" and playing of the musicians who were in front of the mics. So why do all the "old masters" have this "fat" sound? Because of the playing, and because of the number of musicians per section. In today's "baroque-ish transparency" hype even in non-baroque ensembles, people play differently than 50 years ago.

I'm quite sure that no conductor today really wants the band-limited, distorted mono sound of the old recordings. I'm quite sure that if you give him the choice between a modern SDC-main-pair-plus-spots recording and an old-school-one-ribbon-high-over-the-orchestra version, he'll pick the modern version.

[klaukholm]

No matter what mics you put in front of the orchestra, you can't copy the sonic signature of an elite all gut string section with an orchestra playing modern strings.

Add to that the distinctive sound of a string section playing on all 6 to 7 figure $ instruments, a sound that in itself is a treat to be apart of.
In other words, the orchestra in question is not up to the standards of the NBC orchestra and neither is the conductor. As such they will not sound like the NBC orchestra no matter what you do.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

No matter what mics you put in front of the orchestra, you will never get the sound of an elite all gut string section from a no name orchestra playing modern strings.In other words, the orchestra in question is not up to the standards of the NBC orchestra and neither is the conductor. As such they will not sound like the NBC orchestra no matter what you do.

what was that you were saying about me expressing myself to extremes there, Kjetil?

[klaukholm]

I hear you teddy,

That being said, I wonder if you disagree?

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

I hear you teddy,

That being said, I wonder if you disagree?

Kjetil, I bow to your breadth of experience. The vast majority of my music life has been on the other side of the baton as a Basso, while my experience in *recording* classical is, compared to yours, pretty limited(I recorded heavily for 3 years or so in Germany, but not so much once I got out of the Army..now it is all rock and roll or acoustic folk/bluegrass).

I was just ribbing you about the "no name orchestra", no harm meant. As I was just saying in another thread, though, sometimes how we frame things has an enormous impact in how others process our posts. I certainly know I am very weak in this area, hothead that I am.

[klaukholm]

I think my standpoint on this comes from my orchestral background rather than my recording background.

I agree noname is harsh, I will edit the post.
I am making the assumpion that it is in texas and it does not fit the profile of the HSO or the DSO which leaves no fulltime orchestras in the state.

[bash]

To be precise, it is a student orchestra. Each summer promising musicians from around the world are provided scholarships to attend a six-week festival during which they are shaped into as close an approximation of a professional orchestra as we can achieve. In additional to the musical instruction it is also meant to serve as a preview for those planning careers in music.

The CD I mentioned is a "best" of their performances. If you follow the link below there are a few audio clips of what our for-hire audio engineer is delivering. I realize streaming media won't provide sufficient resolution but some might find the clips helpful. The excerpts are under the "Live from Festival Hill" posting (not the first YouTube video). The clips are from last year's orchestra; the students arriving next week will be an entirely new group of musicians. Performances and recording begins June 12th. Note: The clips also contain recordings of visiting-faculty performances. The fourth clip ( S c h e h e r a z a d e ) is a student performance and a good place for review due to the dynamics revealing more of the concert hall contribution (to my ears, anyway). The hall itself, in case you are wondering about that, can be viewed in 360 degrees by following the Virtual Tour link on the right side of the linked page.

I am not qualified to evaluate either the performances or the recordings so your thoughts and suggestions are welcomed. It sounds great to me but my employer wishes to hear something different. What that "different" could be, he hasn't been able to sufficiently communicate beyond the reference to Toscanini, so perhaps you all can help me identify what it might be so I can try to articulate it to our audio engineer with specific (and intelligent) suggestions.

Round Top Festival Institute

[3rd&4thT]

Originally Posted by krs

A key ingredient to that sound is fear and a lack of union regulations

Fear yes, but wrong on the unions. The classical symphony and opera orchestras in New York were unionized back in the 1920's.

Toscanini felt that recordings should be experienced like reading a score, so he wanted a podium perspective, not a hall perspective. (However, to get him to approve recordings for issue, RCA installed a huge playback system in his house, with gigantic speakers in various rooms all playing the same mono signal.)

When Studio 8-H was constructed for him in the late 1930's with the then-trendy dry, airless sound (thanks to a fashion dictated by an influential moron at Bell Labs/Western Electric), Toscanini liked it. We generally don't.

When 8-H was converted to TV use in 1950, Toscanini's recordings were moved to Carnegie Hall. These had to be made close-in to eliminate traffic noise on Seventh Avenue and 57th Street. They also had to be made with rolled-off bass because of rumble from the subway station directly beneath the hall.

So, a sound that tilts bright, with little hall ambiance.

RCA did experiment recording in stereo a few times in Toscanini's last active year, when he was 87. No longer at his interpretive peak, he is revealed as having had a beautiful marble-like orchestral tone, a fact Victor had successfully hid from the world for over 30 years.

In fact, in Toscanini's younger years, his orchestral sound was routinely praised. It's only now, after this avalanche of claustrophobic, hurriedly transferred mono's, that we think of his sound as unpleasant.

I've attached a live stereo Toscanini performance from his very last concert at Carnegie Hall in 1954. It's from an OP Italian CD, and I've done absolutely nothing to help it. Decide for yourself.

Cheers,
3rd&4thT

[boojum]

I am no Wagner fan but I do love this piece. The ambiant noise is amazingly loud. I had the memory that NY audiences were politely quiet. Memories can be so self serving.

It is hard, almost harsh at first. But the pace is lovely. That little man driving that huge orchestra. A beautiful reading. Glorious. Hard to believe it is Wagner.

Thanks for posting it.

Cheers

[willi1203]

... Or you coult try with a Toscanini conductor....