Ways to get around always being quieter than the headliner?

[BrianOblivion]

Hey guys,

I'm about to embark on my first high profile tour with my band, and I was wondering what kind of experience you people have had with the egregious volume gap between opening and headlining bands. It seems that no matter how you tell the sound guy to crank it up, you're always set at least 8 db lower than the main act. Even when the support brings a sound guy on the road with them, I've experienced this same strange phenomenon. How do we tell you venue workers to level the playing field? Do we get our merch guy to "do sound" and crank the master fader a touch after sound check? Any solutions or explanations as to how this is pulled off are much appreciated.

[Bob Olhsson]

Play REALLY soft so that people have to shut up and listen.

[joeshambro]

You most certainly DO NOT let your merch guy do sound -- having someone in your team who lets the house engineer or touring system tech do soundcheck and then just watch the faders is one of the most unwelcome and unprofessional things you could do.

The best thing to do is 1) hire an FOH engineer of your own, or 2) just deal with it. It's part of "making your bones" in the industry.

Enjoy the tour, though!

[bishopthomas]

Sorry, but you're the opening act. You're SUPPOSED TO BE quieter than the headliner. I've done festivals where the limiters were obviously clamping down sooner than I would like, but I know that's the way it goes so I built a decent quiet mix and 45 minutes later turned it back over to the house guy. Getting in arguments with house FOH techs about your volume levels is NOT the way to start a tour, so I would suggest asking politely for as much volume as they can give you then give him a smile and a "thank you" no matter what he says.

[steveschizoid]

Originally Posted by BrianOblivion

.... the egregious volume gap between opening and headlining bands. It seems that no matter how you tell the sound guy to crank it up, you're always set at least 8 db lower than the main act. .

Enjoy the fact that you are not deafening your audience to the same extent that the headliners are.

[Murton]

At my first bigish gig I wasn't given any volume restriction or I didn't hit the level I couldn't go past.

Headlinder engineer obviously had more outboard and channels dedicated to the headliner band but I got a decent mix with the channels and outboard available for the support band. I was running at one level of orange on the master bus, he was about 4 or 5 level of orange above green so it was a difference but not massive. Plus the fact I had a decent mix which wasn't way too loud was a plus, everything was in it's right place, the kick was hitting you in the chest, the mix was fine across the room, headliner was the same but just louder.

So, just mix to the conditions, people are there to see the headliner. Even when it's the same engineer, the mix between two bands one after the other will always favour the second as the mix will be more along as time goes on, things will be compressed, gated, EQ'd and levels sorted thus less noise amplified meaning you can get a louder sounding mix in both louder sounding and actually louder.

So, get a decent FOH engineer that can communicate aswell as mix well, hope they can communicate with the system tech and headliner engineers well and hope you get a decent mix which will be heard by the crowd not ignored as backing music until the headliner comes on.

[foamboy]

Resurrect Peter Grant and have him be your manager!thumbsup


Unfortunately,this is just the way it is for opening acts. IF you don't have your own FOH engineer,try getting the house guy or the other band's engineer REALLY hammered BEFORE you play. Worked for me in the past.

GOOD LUCK!!!

fb

[Unrealworld82]

Well, sorry that I don't have advice for you, but I can tell you about the worst case of this I ever seen.

Last month, I saw Alice In Chains with Shooter Jennings opening. I was sitting in a seat on the row directly in front of the sound island. Mind you, Shooter's band was outstanding, and he's a fairly established artist. My friend and I were shocked when, after Shooter performed, techs started closing up the sound board right behind us into a road case.

We were like "wtf?" AIC must be canceling. To our further surprise, instead, the techs switched out the "regular" board (looked nice, didn't catch brand) for a VENUE board.

AIC went on and were 57 times louder. To give critique though, the mix (guitars especially) was too loud and speaker distorting for AIC. The quieter set up for Shooter brought out their dynamics really well. To tell the truth, me and my friend are seasoned engineers and it was all we could do not to turn around and say "hey, turn the ****ing guitars down" to the sound guys between songs.

So my point is, looks like something you might have to deal with, at least until you headline your own shows.

[dustyreels]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Play REALLY soft so that people have to shut up and listen.

This can actually work!

I would just suggest really having your show together. Play your a$$ off. I won't mention who but my band opened up for a world famous guitarist at a sold out show. For the rest of the night people kept coming up to me saying how much they wished we were still playing. One of the best feelings I ever had.

Another piece of advice is NEVER piss off the sound guy! I could go on and on 'bout this...

[RJHollins]

"Another piece of advice is NEVER piss off the sound guy! I could go on and on 'bout this..."

This would be similar to pissing off the 'chef' BEFORE you eat !

I'd say ... park your ego ... if you are the opening act, your mission is to warm-up the crowd.

One of the worst mistakes bands try is to turn-up stage volume to compensate.

Just remember ... the HeadLiner was also an 'opening act' for somebody.

[klaukholm]

If you learn to use the soft end of the dynamic spectrum well, then your louds will come across as much more powerful.

Loud music is silly while music with a big dynamic range is interesting!

[dustyreels]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Loud music is silly while music with a big dynamic range is interesting!

Well said...

[cortisol]

I love the suggestion of getting the sound guy drunk LOL. That's hilarious and more likely to work.

Hmmm, in reality usually the main act stipulates with the promoter that they will have all the trimmings and the opener will not.

So no moving lights or maxed out loudness for the opener. In these situations even if you bring your own sound engineer and light tech the restrictions will be enforced. It could be the stage manager, the promoter or even the headlining act making sure things happen the way they are scripted.

It funny all the instructions from people telling the band to play with dynamics in their music whether the music calls for this or not and based on the loudness of a FOH that they will never get to hear. They're on stage and they're playing the style of music that they like which might just be Punk or Thrash or something with very little dynamic in the musical style.

Peace,
Cortisol

[klaukholm]

If the band feels they can only make good music if they can max out at 100dB or more, they have other issues than FOH.
A good artist takes the restrictions put on them and uses them for their benefit.

[cortisol]

klaukholm - once you hit a big stage then you can't blame the band for the sound pressure levels loading the room. The blame goes to the sound engineer running front of house. Venues usually have to run their PA's under the legal limits for sound pressure levels and exposure time.

As a musician I can't be in two places at once during my performance. I will only ever hear opinions on the sound for any performance I have given. I try to work with sound engineers whose work I have enjoyed as an audience member and who are pleasent to work with and respond to my requests for on stage sound.

The band isn't responsible for changing the style and delivery based on what they are allocated in SPLs by the promoter of the gig LOL.

Compromises to artistic expression as is being suggested here is a homogenising barrier to delivering a unique sound. I use a prepard drum kit to try and make acoustic drums sound like samples. Sometimes I play with accents and dynamics and sometimes I want to sound like a drum machine and play my drums with no accents or inconsistency what so ever. By choice.

I think having an intellectualised limit like the 100 dB SPL you've mentioned is crazy. Who ever heard of a Thrash Metal band sounding right at 60 dB's.

But then again it is only the FOH that gets to experience what you are talking about. The on stage sound experience is dramatically different to what is happening at front of house. You might have onstage feedback and nothing through FOH. You might have a stage resonating and making the drummer feel disconnected from playing the kick drum due to the vague huge low frequencies building up and lagging to far behind what is being played.

The guy we use mixes for fidelity and achieves an amazing balance that is not fatiguing or amped up too loud. We chose to work with him because of the great mixes he get for other bands. Loud enough to rock out with but not using pure volume to induce fight or flight or adrenaline over genuine excitement that comes from the music.

But some music styles do need the dB's and it is part of the music and appropriate.

Peace,
cortisol

[klaukholm]

Well we disagree then.

[Uncle Russ]

The idea is to be better than the headliner, not louder.

[7rojo7]

Worry about your monitors and how you play
You'll never be louder than the headliner
read the rider

Saw Lenny Kravitz with Boston, Kansas with Bad Company, Montrose with Queen etc...
Play and be able to hear yourself

Festivals can be worse

It's all a show and the headliners, well, they're the headliners

Sorry

[dysenterygary]

Most of the shows I've been to lately didn't have the opener much quieter, it was just mixed all to hell. Its like they take the eq and just crank everything from 200-400hz and then make one or two instruments unnecessarily loud. Usually kick and a guitar, while the other guitarist is basically not even there. I'm not sure I've ever seen an opening act that I could hear vocals for. If they are giving you a good mix and its quiet then you are already way ahead of the game.

[DannyL]

Play better than the headliner, that way no one will notice that you are quieter, and the headliner will just give people a headache.

Danny

Originally Posted by BrianOblivion

Hey guys,

I'm about to embark on my first high profile tour with my band, and I was wondering what kind of experience you people have had with the egregious volume gap between opening and headlining bands. It seems that no matter how you tell the sound guy to crank it up, you're always set at least 8 db lower than the main act. Even when the support brings a sound guy on the road with them, I've experienced this same strange phenomenon. How do we tell you venue workers to level the playing field? Do we get our merch guy to "do sound" and crank the master fader a touch after sound check? Any solutions or explanations as to how this is pulled off are much appreciated.

[WVUtubadude]

The only good opening I have heard was when the opening act included the son of the lead singer of the headliner.

FWIW, this show was The Police and the lead singer of the opener was Sting's son.

[Remoteness]

A lot of great suggestions in this thread.

I'd just make sure the band plays their arses off; get you mix on point and blow them away with an excellent dynamic performance and mix.

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Sorry, but you're the opening act. You're SUPPOSED TO BE quieter than the headliner. I've done festivals where the limiters were obviously clamping down sooner than I would like, but I know that's the way it goes so I built a decent quiet mix and 45 minutes later turned it back over to the house guy. Getting in arguments with house FOH techs about your volume levels is NOT the way to start a tour, so I would suggest asking politely for as much volume as they can give you then give him a smile and a "thank you" no matter what he says.

Originally Posted by klaukholm

If you learn to use the soft end of the dynamic spectrum well, then your louds will come across as much more powerful.

Loud music is silly while music with a big dynamic range is interesting!

Originally Posted by DannyL

Play better than the headliner, that way no one will notice that you are quieter, and the headliner will just give people a headache.

Danny

[obutcher]

Some of the best mixes I've ever done have been as an engineer for a support band. If you can pull a great mix, not too squashed and give it a nice round tone, nobody is going to worry too much about your volume.

I remember one night I mixed a band with the master fader at -10dB and despite the headliner insisting I turn it up (I had already done a sound check so I knew how it would sound) before the band started playing, once he heard the mix he got my details and gave me a bunch of great work out of it!

[Kenton]

Originally Posted by steveschizoid

Enjoy the fact that you are not deafening your audience to the same extent that the headliners are.

+1

Having just done 4 "big names" in 2 days - 3 of them were mixed too loud for the room with too much low end and the vocal straining to be heard over the din, the 4th was loud but actually pretty good - it was mostly ProTools playback though...
8dB down would have been just about perfect... maybe a touch quiet.

[jeremyglover]

Originally Posted by RJHollins

"Another piece of advice is NEVER piss off the sound guy! I could go on and on 'bout this..."

This would be similar to pissing off the 'chef' BEFORE you eat !

I'd say ... park your ego ... if you are the opening act, your mission is to warm-up the crowd.

One of the worst mistakes bands try is to turn-up stage volume to compensate.

Just remember ... the HeadLiner was also an 'opening act' for somebody.

and that's the truth .. ruth ..

[Remoteness]

+1 on that dynamic!

Originally Posted by jeremyglover

and that's the truth .. ruth ..