piano spot mics for Rachmaninov Piano concerto ?

[studer58]

I'm seeking recommendations for spot mics (location and spacing) on a piano performing Rachmaninov Piano Concerto No.3 in D minor with orchestra. The main AB omni pair (KM183) above the conductor will pick up most of the soundstage very well, including a reasonably centred Steinway grand. I'll have a pair of SD omni outriggers for some orchestral width ambience and focus, plus a pair of woodwind spots. I'll have the time to plant spots for the Rachmaninov piece after the piano is in place. My guess is that I will barely need a piano spot(s) for volume, just a touch of added focus. Perhaps a single 'tail-end' mic would do the job, although I'd prefer stereo. Maybe a Rode NT-4 XY mic would give the necessary imaging, as a pair of omnis would probably pick up too much orchestral spill ? The XY pair could be treated as a M/S pair later on in post to give the required width perspective. I'm guessing I'll need very little of the spot in the final mix, but in terms of "butt-covering" what would be your recommendations ?
Thanks,
Ray

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by studer58

.....but in terms of "butt-covering" what would be your recommendations ?

How about a pair of Sennheiser MKE 1 or 2 or DPA 4061 stuck to the lid - this turns them into boundary microphones and should pick up a good sound without too much spil..

I have also used Neumann GFM 132 boundary microphones on the floor underneath the piano to good effect.

I hope this helps.

[JonesH]

Originally Posted by John Willett

How about a pair of Sennheiser MKE 1 or 2 or DPA 4061 stuck to the lid - this turns them into boundary microphones and should pick up a good sound without too much spil..

I have also used Neumann GFM 132 boundary microphones on the floor underneath the piano to good effect.

I hope this helps.

What he said. Or you could try a small AB pair with cardioids on a standard stereo bar, I find it more useful than X/Y (though honestly I haven't tried so much. M/S sometimes, can be nice).

[studer58]

Thanks for that John, I do have a Milab 30-something PZM plate mic but the management would not allow anything taped to the lid, which is unfortunate !! However, I'm sure nobody would notice it on the floor under the piano, but on the few occasions I've tried that I've had a very boxy, closed-in spot sound as a result, not natural at all. However, those qualities (natural) are not what we're necessarily looking for in a spot mic are they...where 'cutting through' is more the name of the game ? I suppose i should be aiming for some accentuation of whatever it is that the overhead omni pair doesn't give me ? Your point about using SD capsules taped to the lid to turn them into PZM's is a good one, but gaffa on the lid would get an instant veto I'm sure.... Where under a piano would you locate a pair of PZM's...and wouldn't they be very prone to picking up a lot of overall orchestral spill ??
Ray

[studer58]

Originally Posted by JonesH

What he said. Or you could try a small AB pair with cardioids on a standard stereo bar, I find it more useful than X/Y (though honestly I haven't tried so much. M/S sometimes, can be nice).

Yes this appeals to me more than a PZM pair, and perhaps placed closer in to the edge of the piano than if it were a small jazz ensemble or solo piano...so that I get a greater ratio of piano direct sound compared with surrounding orchestral background, as the lid can act as a bit of a soundshell for that unwanted stuff maybe ? Do you mean ORTF rather than AB ?
Ray

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by studer58

Thanks for that John, I do have a Milab 30-something PZM plate mic but the management would not allow anything taped to the lid, which is unfortunate !! However, I'm sure nobody would notice it on the floor under the piano, but on the few occasions I've tried that I've had a very boxy, closed-in spot sound as a result, not natural at all. However, those qualities (natural) are not what we're necessarily looking for in a spot mic are they...where 'cutting through' is more the name of the game ? I suppose i should be aiming for some accentuation of whatever it is that the overhead omni pair doesn't give me ? Your point about using SD capsules taped to the lid to turn them into PZM's is a good one, but gaffa on the lid would get an instant veto I'm sure.... Where under a piano would you locate a pair of PZM's...and wouldn't they be very prone to picking up a lot of overall orchestral spill ??
Ray

Gaffa tape on a piano lid is a no-no.

With mini tie mics you can stick them with Rycote Stickies which are hypo-allergenic and come off very easily.

On the floor will depend on the piano and would be subject to experimentation. Last time I put one under the tail and one a little behind the pedals.

[joelpatterson]

Butt-coverers of the world-- unite!

I'd guess any kind of quick/dirty pair peeking in over the edge of the opened lid, at about the curve of the piano, would give you the most crispest, immediate detail.... which you could then bring in enough to get some definition. Some kind of SDC's in some kind of ORTF/NOS configuration... something like that.

[themaidsroom]

Joespson e-22s.
2 or 3 or even 4
amazing on piano



Be well


Jack

[Plush]

I would go with a single mono spot 1 foot out from the crook of the piano.
Here, for this purpose, Schoeps CMC52 is often used. I would not use a super high output mic (Senn. 8020) for this since with that program material it could overload the mic amp input.

If indeed your main pair will pick up most of the sound, stereo touch up mics on the piano are overkill.

You wouldn't believe the number and quality of classic live recordings of piano concertos that were done this way.

[MBishopSFX]

PZM or other mics inside the piano will NOT integrate well with the overall orchestra mics. Don't do it! That would be fairly gross-sounding, IMO.

I recorded the very same piece late last year with the Atlanta Symphony and Garrick Ohlsson (on a fairly bright American Steinway D). The four main orchestra mics gave 95% of the piano sound. A single DPA 4011 placed about 6' straight out from the tail added just enough "point" when needed in the mix. The piano was downstage, just behind the conductor.


.

[Sounds Great]

I once bought a pair of Audix SCX25's, and gave them back because they were way to beamy, they had a real sweet spot and were not well adaptive of the sound moving around out of the spot at all. But in that spot they sounded good, real good. I thought they would be perfect for mic'ing up a piano, but I never had the chance to try it. I bet they would be wonderful for that application. thumbsup

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Plush

... stereo touch up mics on the piano are overkill...

And? Are you implying overkill is a bad thing? I hear they plan to auto-tune this thing!

[studer58]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

And? Are you implying overkill is a bad thing? I hear they plan to auto-tune this thing!

Nothing succeeds like excess ! I was thinking of shoving one of those holophone dummy heads between the lid and strings ! But seriously, thank you guys for this wealth of advice and perspectives, obviously there are many ways to approach this and fortunately I'll have a few hours for experimentation during rehearsal, so I'll probably put out 2 or 3 of these suggested spots in various locations and see which gives the best result. Another wildcard possibility is a Sennheiser electret shotgun (ME80) pointing in at the tail end from a few feet away...I only mention it because such a beast appears in this video (thanks to David Spearitt for the link, via another thread) Plushmusic - Watching "Schubert: Erlkönig - Litanie" I really just want the spot to give a little bit of whatever the main omni pair doesn't provide. My mic with the least off-axis colouration would be a U89, so maybe that set to hypercardioid in the bend of the piano (or the tail end) might be the safest bet ? Mono vs stereo spot on a piano is still a contentious thing tho......
Thanks again, and don't think of this as a 'closing line' post at all, more of your thoughts are welcomed !
Ray

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

I'd guess any kind of quick/dirty pair peeking in over the edge of the opened lid, at about the curve of the piano, would give you the most crispest, immediate detail.... which you could then bring in enough to get some definition. Some kind of SDC's in some kind of ORTF/NOS configuration... something like that.

Pretty good starting point IMHO.

[JonesH]

I've also, to some degree of success, used these:

K&M 240/5 MIKROHALTEVORRICHTUNG - U.K. International Cyberstore

With a normal stereo bar and put two 4011 or somesuch on at the crook of the piano. You can make near-coincident or small AB or whatever suits the material.

[Larry Elliott]

Originally Posted by Plush

I would go with a single mono spot 1 foot out from the crook of the piano.

Hi Plush,
What height would you suggest for the spot - same as the main pair?
Thanks
Larry

[pschneider]

Originally Posted by studer58

I'm seeking recommendations for spot mics (location and spacing) on a piano performing Rachmaninov Piano Concerto No.3 in D minor with orchestra. The main AB omni pair (KM183) above the conductor will pick up most of the soundstage very well, including a reasonably centred Steinway grand...

I recorded Rachmaninov's Concerto No.2 a while ago - here are two samples:

The first is the raw spot pair (AB omnis, approx. 15" apart, 4" above and from the rim where it is curved inward). The second is the full mix (piano spots, AB omnis above conductor, omni outriggers, XY cardiods on woodwind).

[Plush]

Originally Posted by Larry Elliott

Hi Plush,
What height would you suggest for the spot - same as the main pair?
Thanks
Larry

No, I suggest low height like even on the wooden part of the piano. I know it sounds as if it will be too close but one is just adding in a little of it for focus.
If the piano is not being strongly picked up from the main pair this won't work, however.

The engineer has to experiment and maybe back away more depending on repertoire.

[7rojo7]

Mono spots are easier to place in the stereo image. The piano itself will act as a barrier for bleed. I have better results when I can delay the spots to the main array.

[studer58]

Originally Posted by Plush

No, I suggest low height like even on the wooden part of the piano. I know it sounds as if it will be too close but one is just adding in a little of it for focus.
If the piano is not being strongly picked up from the main pair this won't work, however.

The engineer has to experiment and maybe back away more depending on repertoire.

Thanks for your advice everyone, just a quick update. As the piano ended up being right under the main stereo pair (yet screened by the lid) I needed spots to give back some definition. I went with a 38cm spaced omni pair just peeking over the edge of the piano at the curve, and as predicted the lid prevented a lot of the spill from the orchestra that you might expect to get if it were any other instrument. The omni pair certainly needed a 20dB pad before them, that piano is ferociously loud ! Panning them in together quite substantially, plus some bass roll-off should help them sit in the mix quite well, and the main pair plus outriggers gives a nice stereo reverb to the piano, while the spots give a touch of attack and focus. Thanks again to everyone for your advice !