Kawai Grand + Sound Devices 702 + Schoeps MK2 in Church

[jaba]

Hello,

Any/all comments and advice is appreciated to help improve this recording:

Instrument/Location: This is a recording of a Kawai Baby Grand (about 5'8" long), in a church with hard wood floors and a rounded ceiling, with the piano about 10 feet from one of the walls.

Microphones: Two matched Schoeps MK2 (w/CMC6).

Preamp/Converter/Recorder: Sound Devices 702, recording to compact flash card.

Position: Microphones in AB, about 40 centimeters apart, about 1 meter from the bend of the piano. The microphones are about 1.7 meters from the ground, pointing at the strings (about 45 degrees from horizontal).

Mix: I've panned the mics hard right and hard left and mixed to Stereo in Adobe Audition. I've not changed gain settings, nor added any effects or EQ.

Your advice (regarding equipment, setup, mixing, etc.) is appreciated!

Thanks!

[ChrisPRoberts]

Hi Jaba,
My advice would be to make sure that you don't go to close to the piano. The important thing is that you are capturing a real instrument is a physical acoustic. the most important thing is to listen to how the piano sounds in the acoustic. Ask the Pianist to play and have a walk around from from one end of the church to the other and hear what it sounds like in real life.

Then you want to put the person listening to the recording in the "Best seat in the house" This is a point of both clarity in the sound of the instrument and also the understanding that the instrument is in an acoustic space.

I would say maybe don't space the mic's so far apart and point them between 45 and 60 degrees in either direction this should help produce a clearer image. Also the mic's are going to need to be further away from the piano in order to capture the sound of the Church.

Its a good starting point and you sure have some nice kit to work with!

Kind Regards
Chris

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by ChrisPRoberts

Hi Jaba,
I would say maybe don't space the mic's so far apart and point them between 45 and 60 degrees in either direction this should help produce a clearer image.

Um, MK2 are omnis. 40cm is already pretty close to get a stereo image with that pickup pattern. And putting that much of an angle on omnis ....are you thinking he's using cards?

For this kind of material, this close intimate sound is preferable. In a hall with classical rep, the story would be different. Over crapola computer speakers here at work, I can't hear anything I'd consider objectionable here.

[Nobilmente]

Originally Posted by jaba

Hello,

Any/all comments and advice is appreciated to help improve this recording:

Instrument/Location: This is a recording of a Kawai Baby Grand (about 5'8" long), in a church with hard wood floors and a rounded ceiling, with the piano about 10 feet from one of the walls.

Microphones: Two matched Schoeps MK2 (w/CMC6).

Preamp/Converter/Recorder: Sound Devices 702, recording to compact flash card.

Position: Microphones in AB, about 40 centimeters apart, about 1 meter from the bend of the piano. The microphones are about 1.7 meters from the ground, pointing at the strings (about 45 degrees from horizontal).

Mix: I've panned the mics hard right and hard left and mixed to Stereo in Adobe Audition. I've not changed gain settings, nor added any effects or EQ.

Your advice (regarding equipment, setup, mixing, etc.) is appreciated!

Thanks!

For me on this particular repertoire I would like to hear more definition on the bass notes than is achieved here, not louder, just defined. This could be accomplished by adding a couple of mics toward the end of the piano and looking in at the strings, not too close. Then panning them left and right. In this case, it might be better to move the main pair more toward the player to ensure a balance of the same sort of clarity from the treble...............but listen, of course. Don't record from the reflection of the lid, you can lift the pair up a bit and avoid that. I hope all of this makes sense!

If you are only able to use these two mics, I might try and achieve that definition in the bass by moving a little out of the bow of the piano and more toward the end, but keeping an eye (or an ear) on not losing the top. It's a trial and error thing isn't it? But I would wish to hear better definition from the bass notes.............not really louder, but better defined.

Having typed all of that, it could be the piano, only you will know.

[jaba]

Thank you for the comments and advice so far.

I think the piano sounded a bit "muddy" in the church--so I think I understand about the lack of definition in the bass. I also have some violin/piano recordings, where the microphones were further back. I'll try to post them in a bit.

[ChrisPRoberts]

Um, MK2 are omnis. 40cm is already pretty close to get a stereo image with that pickup pattern. And putting that much of an angle on omnis ....are you thinking he's using cards?

No im quite aware that Mk2's are omni, but if you bring them in say by 5cm each then aim them out the capsules will end up back where they are but pointing outward!

I agree that the bass should sound more defined and that a close pair would be good but then ideally a space pair should be used in combination to move you back into the room but with the equipment i think better definition in the bass could possibly (but without hearing the room and knowing truly what the piano sounds like) be found from moving slightly away from the piano and getting a more naturally balanced sound.

So there you go two takes on ways you could improve it so plenty to be experimenting with!

Kind Regards
Chris

[jaba]

This is the same arrangement as with the piano recording, more or less, but recording violin and piano.

The mics are a few feet further back (about two feet away from the violin), with the violinist standing in front of the piano (the usual classical style).

Advice and comments are appreciated.

[ChrisPRoberts]

Hi Jaba,
The piano sounds lovely in your second recording! It sounds far more balanced an natural (at least to me anyway) But the Violin (as with your first piano recording) as the solo instrument it is to close.

When recording the Violin and piano how about moving the mic stand one foot further away from the piano but move the piano slightly to the left as well. Then you can put the violin about a foot in front of the piano but in line with the microphones or even ever so slightly to the right. This will Keep the two instruments in context with each other. It should also allow for good eye contact between the two musicians also.

Kind Regards
Chris

[jaba]

Thanks Chris,

I'm not sure I'm properly visualizing the positioning you suggest. When you say Left/Right, do you mean looking from the perspective of the microphones?

Also, in case anyone is interested, I've kept some similar recordings (from a while back) but with different mics/preamps (same place, same instruments, nearly same mic positioning). I bought the Sound Devices 'cause I simply can't carry the heavy Millennia Preamp and the Lavry Blue (the Schoeps are the same ones I used with the Sound Devices recordings). Also, I liked the sound of the Schoeps over the Royer SF-12. If interested, please listen and let me know if you think there is reason to keep the Royer SF-12.

Thanks again to everyone!

[didier.brest]

I prefer much the Royer take. The stereo image and the timbres are more natural. Thanks for sharing!

[joelpatterson]

I would say: the very first sample is nice, it's just missing a slight touch of the ol' upper frequency range-- there's a murkiness that's not really "murky" but just a little "hazy." As though a hi-cut was inadvertently engaged. I know this isn't the case, but the effect is that something of the crispness is missing... so the music doesn't engage you like it should, it hovers at a distance.

And call me totally crazy, but to my sense and sensibilities, the perspectives of the violin and piano in the last samples are backwards-- the violin is RIGHT THERE and the piano is distant. Cruel, bitter experience has finally led to me conclude that a violin's tone is largely the amorphous way it fills a room, that's where the real "singing" resides. It's like you're looking at the output vent of a fog machine-- yeah, it's a fog machine, it's what it does, create fog, but the reason for a fog machine is the steamy mist effect in the room and the eerie sensation that creates.

[jaba]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing to have the violin a little more present than the piano, but I agree, somehow, it needs to be more even than achieved in my sample recordings.

Any more thoughts on the Royer vs. Shoeps? I was about to sell off the Royer until the last comment!

Thanks!

[Maxjames]

Originally Posted by jaba

Thanks for the replies.
Any more thoughts on the Royer vs. Shoeps? I was about to sell off the Royer until the last comment!

Thanks!

I also prefer the Royer take, the piano sounding more "bell" like timber which is the classical definition of a quality piano.

I am not sure though the difference is entirely due to the mics per se. The Shoep mics might be placed a bit too far apart from each other which might cause some phasing issue for the higher frequencies. A more apple to apple comparison would be to put the Shoeps in XY configuration, as the Royer mics are.