Recording Jazz

[Lightship95]

Hi,

While having experience in recording indie/rock/metal/folk i have little in recording jazz music, but would like to.

I have recorded solo sax, trumpet, double bass etc on many recordings with good results but what I'm new to is recording a jazz band playing together in a room.

Please could you guide me on mics and placement. Suggestions for drums, brass etc. I have Calrec, Api, Neve, DAV pres if that has a bearing on choice.

thanks in advance.

[DeadPoet]

I did my first 'real' jazz quintet recording last week. Seasoned players (dr, bass, rhodes, tenor & bari) all playing together in my 500sqft/10-12' ceilings pro-designed live room.

OH - Peluso P28's in X/Y in SCA Neve
(closed) Kick - RE20 in SCA API
Snare - M201 in SCA API

Upright - AT4050 wrapped in foam in bridge in SCA Neve
Piezo out for some FX - LittleLabs IBP in A/D

Rhodes (fender amp) - Sm7 in VoxBox

Saxes: M160 in Manley dual tube

'Room' (set to have the best balance possible - was a little difficult between bass & saxes) - Peluso P12 in SCA Neve



The band was really happy with the sounds in the room, sounds on tape and way of working (everybody had phones, saxes preferred to play without).

My live room is shaped like an 'L'. Drums in one 'leg', upright and rhodes in the other 'leg', saxes in the 'corner' (facing drums)

I had put 2 gobo's (about 2x4') in front of the upright bass and there was as good as NO leaking in ANY channel. (big compliments to the acoustic designer Thomas Jouanjean of Northward Acoustics )


Try to get the musicians to be as comfortable as possible, they'll play better. Better playing = better recording and they'll think you have anything to do with that



Herwig

[Lightship95]

Thank you ver much, all makes sense,

It has been requested that no headphones will be worn (by the musicians) and preferably no gobos.

[DeadPoet]

why no gobos ?? If they can see and hear each other, the gobo's only help you tighten up the sound?


Herwig

[Lightship95]

I think they want to hear exactly what eachother is doing, I know what you're saying though,

They are very respected players so I'll start by taking their request on board. I like the challenge.

[DeadPoet]

in that case something I picked up in the Stavrou book: bleed is only an issue when not all instruments are equal in volume. Mostly the upright bass will be a problem. So I'd suggest making good use of the microphones' pickup patterns.


Good luck!



Herwig

[Jungle Jazz]

Check over at the Remote Possibilities forum where there are many threads about recording jazz, in various configurations. There's a bunch of links at the top of the main RP page that will get you started in a productive direction.

[Jeff16years]

Originally Posted by Lightship95

I think they want to hear exactly what eachother is doing

typical dumb request (in my opinion)

"we don't want to wear headphones but we want to hear exactly what everyone is doing so therefore we're going to make your job very difficult and sacrifice the sound of the end result"

sometimes even good players with a lot of experience are still f**king idiots.

this is just my opinion, i don't mean to offend anyone

[PlugHead]

If they're all in the same room, try to minimize 'bad' spill by not placing the bass or sax too close to the kit, etc. Baffles/gobo's are your friends - use them to minimize direct spill and you'll have an easier time mixing.

I'm more interested in mics and choices than I am with pre's. I'd be happy with using one good flavour of pre as opposed to the other way 'round.

My choices are often:

Kit OH: SDC pr., but could be ribbons or LDC's (context dependent). These incl. Sony C38b's, Neumann SM69/AKG C422, AEA R-88, CL TS-1's, AKG 451EB's, etc.
kick - 441/RE-20 or even a ribbon (w blast filter)
snare - optional - as a safety I'd put a 57/SM7 or an AKG 451/KM184 or similar.

bass: SDC in foam mounted at the bridge, or I often use DPA 4060/61's w string mount (best for when spill is minimal as they are omni's), and the foam mounted mic is better directionally. Alternately, you can try a SDC at the fingerboard to catch articulation and blend with foam mounted mic to taste.

keys: depends - real piano I'd choose the C422, or possibly the AEA R-88. Rhodes I'd mic the cab with a few different choices depending on the context - SM7, 421, 57, or a ribbon for darker tones, a brighter condenser if it's too muddy...

sax: Sony C38b, Royer SF-1, Beyer M160/260, or a good dynamic like a 441. IMO, alto sax often sounds best with a ribbon mic to mellow out the harsh, squeaky tone and put some weight on it.

trumpet: Coles 4038/R-121 or poss. a LDC or dynamic, tho I wouldn't throw a U67 out of the fray if I had one.

bone: 4038, R-121, Beyer M-160/260 or a dynamic (441 or 421) - I like my ribbons on brass!

Tho I'm a proponent of everyone in the same room/ no cans, great recordings can be made with isolation too - you just need the players who can decide how and can perform their best within the limitations of a recording environment - that's where the magic is...

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by Jeff16years

typical dumb request (in my opinion)

"we don't want to wear headphones but we want to hear exactly what everyone is doing so therefore we're going to make your job very difficult and sacrifice the sound of the end result"

sometimes even good players with a lot of experience are still f**king idiots.

this is just my opinion, i don't mean to offend anyone

That's an ill informed opinion. Idiots???? Whew. When you play your whole life to learn achieve a balance with the musicians you're playing with on stage naturally, it's weird and disconcerting to use something entirely artificial like headphones to attempt to achieve the same balance your have with musicians you're looking at, as you do every day.

The gifted jazz musician is trying to get into the zone. He's trying to play intuitively. The less unknowns he has in his path the better it is for him to get there. Having an engineer who thinks his request is idiotic, even if that opinion is not spoken, is too much.

The job of the engineer, in this case, should be to capture as true as possible what the MUSICIANS are doing. Not have them try to adapt to his work habits.

[Lightship95]

Possibly the case Jeff but I prefer to give someone who's been playing to a high level longer than I've been alive the benefit of the doubt.

I'd rather start from a positive stand point.

Yes it will make my life harder, but if it's unworkable i'll have to use gobos.

thank you for your replys, I'll check out the remote possibilities.

[Jeff16years]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

That's an ill informed opinion. Idiots???? Whew. When you play your whole life to learn achieve a balance with the musicians you're playing with on stage naturally, it's weird and disconcerting to use something entirely artificial like headphones to attempt to achieve the same balance your have with musicians you're looking at, as you do every day.

The gifted jazz musician is trying to get into the zone. He's trying to play intuitively. The less unknowns he has in his path the better it is for him to get there. Having an engineer who thinks his request is idiotic, even if that opinion is not spoken, is too much.

The job of the engineer, in this case, should be to capture as true as possible what the MUSICIANS are doing. Not have them try to adapt to his work habits.

Yeah, i know what your saying and maybe "idiots" is a little harsh but I wouldn't say ill informed, I based it on the information I had. I didn't mean to sound so harsh in the reply, I'm sure they're talented musicians.

Yes, of course it's a little odd playing music with headphones on but you usually can get over that by the time you turn 14 years old and have been playing your instrument for more than a year.... are these guys professionals?

Good luck with the session, make sure you let us know how it all turns out! I'm looking forward to hearing about your mics and mic placement.
-Jeff

[henryrobinett]

Yeah but why would he have to wear phones? If he's playing with guys in front of him, what's the need? Especially if, he's a horn player and needs to hear the instrument like he usually does, from his head? If he's not playing to a sequence why should he? And wnhy should an engineer have a problem with that?

[joeq]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

When you play your whole life to learn achieve a balance with the musicians you're playing with on stage naturally, it's weird and disconcerting to use something entirely artificial like headphones to attempt to achieve the same balance your have with musicians you're looking at, as you do every day...

If someone wants to set up to play without headphones that's one thing. Totally understandable, I do it all the time for jazz bands. But objecting to a couple of gobos around the doghouse is a prima donna request IMHO. Ten Euros says that at mixdown time, there's complaining about the bass sound.

I agree with the basic principle that the musicians' comfort comes first, but in my experience, the most gifted musicians are also the most flexible and accommodating. They will adapt to whatever conditions and still play their asses off.

Of course the best engineers are also the most adaptable!

But the simple fact is that the band is NOT on a stage, not set up in a line facing some kind of audience, etc etc.

Someone who has been "playing his whole life" has probably been in a studio before...

[Jeff16years]

if it were me i wouldn't have a problem with that at all. I would explain the pros and cons to them and let them figure it out (maybe after the fact) for them self

it's just that I would think that if he wants to do it that way AND he doesn't want to use gobos, AND he wants to hear everything, AND he doesn't want to wear headphones, AND he wants the recording to sound good, that might be a bit much to ask.
I think that the musician should do his job and let the engineer do their job (like putting up gobos and placing mics, etc.)

i did a jazz session before, with a professor at Berklee, he was the conductor, he was approx. in his 60's and had been doing this for a very long time...
we were recording a live performance with a large, almost orchestral set up. He wanted me to only use 2 mics and he insisted where I place them. He said that in his experience that got the best all around sound.
in post production he was angry that he couldn't hear more of the percussion.
He told me what he wanted, I explained to him the pros and cons, he insisted that I do it his way because he wanted an open, live feel. I said ok. He was unhappy with the results.
He was clearly a f**king idiot.

-Jeff

[Lightship95]

thank you for the constructive replies.

please, drop the gobo thing, I can deal with that, I have a good room, plenty of gobos, if it's gobos we need then it's gobos we use, gobos gobos gobos. I will be sure to let you know wether or not anyone is any kind of idiot or not.

I usually start by respecting peoples opinions and requests, I will advise where needed but also am happy to be advised. thank you.

Any more mic suggestions and placements are most welcome,

[jonathan jetter]

i think a lot of mic choices could work as long as basic common sense applies:

condensers for most things, maybe ribbons for horns, etc.

minimal miking compared to pop/rock music- maybe OH pair + kick for drums, one or two mics for piano (one mic is often preferable here), etc.

preamp choice is whatever. as long as they are good preamps then you're set.

to whoever said put the bass far away from the drums...i sort of disagree. put the bass closer to the drums. they'll play better, and your bleed will be closer/more dry and then hopefully your bass mic won't turn into a "crazy cavernous room mic."

also- if the bass player has a pickup i always print that as well. sometimes when bleed is an issue sneaking the pickup in behind the mic at like -10db will reinforce the level without really changing the sound that much.

if they don't want headphones, don't make them wear headphones. if they don't want gobos don't make them use gobos. this is still a service industry, and i will always advise my opinion but will always ultimately respect the client's wishes.

besides...if they know more about jazz than you do there's at least a decent chance they're on to something.

[unit7]

Hard to say for sure without seeing/listening to your room but I would be careful to place the bass player too far away from the drums. (edit: didn't see the previous post until i was ready...) In many cases you won't gain that much in lowered drum leakage. The leakage will still be there and much uglier because of the delay and reflections from the room, causing problems to get the drum sound tight. In fact, placing the bass close to the drums and then delaying the drum channels in the mix (so the drum leakage in the bass mic aligns with the drum channels) works great (I didn't invent that method btw). If too far away you'll have to delay the drums to the extent that it'll ruin the musical timing. Now, delaying the drums in the mix of course affects leakage in other mics as well, so this requires planning and perhaps the time to test listen. Hope everything works out great. Recording jazz is fun!

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

If they're all in the same room, try to minimize 'bad' spill by not placing the bass or sax too close to the kit, etc. Baffles/gobo's are your friends - use them to minimize direct spill and you'll have an easier time mixing.

Quoted for clarification - not TOO close (i.e. right beside, like he/she'd mostly likely be 'on stage'), and pref. gobo'd to avoid NASTY spill...

Good luck with the session!

[fimone]

my 2 cents

No headphones is better.
Bleed help in jazz.
Use the more natural sounding mics you have, a jazz player work his entire life to reach a good sound, nobody should change without his request.

[Audio Hombre]

i've never seen or met jazz cats that had a problem with gobo's in the studio. headphones yes, sh1t ive seem guys from all genres that have issues with cans, but gobo's, no..

[henryrobinett]

I wasn't talking about gobos. I don't know what the deal is about gobos. I was talking strictly about phones.

[Jeff16years]

a pair of KSM 32's strategically placed in the room could do a lot of good. The 32's are very neutral sounding and could be a great asset for a project like this.

-Jeff

[antti]

I would let them (and help them) set-up the way they feel most comfortable and produce the most unique/interesting sound as a band and then try to capture that the best possible way.. starting with a stereo pair.. ambience pair.. spot mics.. With or without headphones/gobos/etc. Who cares how much bleed there's from bass to drum mics, etc if the record sounds killer in the end. Yes, it can be nice to have options but then again sometimes less is way more. Enjoy the session

[la grange]

A good room is half the result.
bleed is almost essential.
Stereo room is a must for me.
headphones are definitely not recommended.
Gobo no unless you keep them minimal in one line in the studio, mic stands with cloth, yes.

Once you can achieve that, put your best stereo pair on omni. then go and fetch what is missing by moving closer, closer, closer. Check the phase, press rec.

Oli

[bass man]

I record mostly jazz and acoustic music with real players .
First of all I think if you want to get great sound you need to isolate the instruments from each other and specially the "Quieter instruments " like upright bass , accordion , etc , but not everybody .
For example I like having drums and sax player in the same room with gobos , but I always put the bass , vocal ,piano etc in other room .

I like to record all the instruments stereo , but really all of them , sax bass guitar etc is always stereo .

I like ribbons , tlm 193 , tlm 170 U 89 etc on the sax trumpets trombone etc

I like the km 184 stereo on bass or even a single one together with a good pickup ( but watch the phase )
I also like km 184 on drums OH . I hate using 100 mics on drums and always try to record the drums with 4 or 5 mics . BD d 112 or RE 20 , snare sm 57 or 421 and I like c 414 or some great tube mic for the drum room .

Clean pres like older studer mixer 962 or similar sound very smooth and sweet with great body .... No processing , comps etc while recording .

If you record it right and isolated as good as possible , mixing is really simple then .....

[bass man]

....

[namsabnek]

If your room isn't perfect and maybe the players (read drummer) aren't seasoned enough to make space in his own sound for the bass, you can save a lot of mixing headaches by isolating the bass player completely. Pretty rare, i think, in most situations where it is avoidable not to separate the bass

[Bassmankr]

A few are forgetting the old days when they put 30 musicians in a room with no cans, no gobos, and one mic yet got good balance (you can move people around only to the extent that they can still hear the other guys as jazz is really a musical CONVERSATION between players). Good jazz players will balance themselves, it's your job to first set them up to your best acoustical advantage but still with great sightlines and with everyone being able to hear each other well so they can self balance. THEN find the right mics and their sweet spots to place them. If they are playing in a decent sounding room all you really need to do is to capture what they are giving you.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Bassmankr

A few are forgetting the old days when they put 30 musicians in a room with no cans, no gobos, and one mic yet got good balance (you can move people around only to the extent that they can still hear the other guys as jazz is really a musical CONVERSATION between players). Good jazz players will balance themselves, it's your job to first set them up to your best acoustical advantage but still with great sightlines and with everyone being able to hear each other well so they can self balance. THEN find the right mics and their sweet spots to place them. If they are playing in a decent sounding room all you really need to do is to capture what they are giving you.

But - this is the 21st CENTURY mate - get with the program! 2 mics for EVERYTHING!!!