Recording Jazz

[Bassmankr]

Plus those two mics have to be placed an inch away from the source LOL.

[bass man]

Great jazz albums are done with couple of mics in one room ala Rudy van Gelder, but also great jazz albums are made with all the instruments being isolated and close recorded with more than one mic .

No need to act like a Jazz Police .....

[Russell Dawkins]

bass man - I guess you mean Van Gelder - but do you know specifically that he records this way? I would be surprised, and I don't think many "great" jazz albums have been done this way since more than two tracks were easily available. Jazz at the Pawnshop being a notable exception.

Rudy Van Gelder... or is this forum too Rock & Roll? - Gearslutz.com

Rudy V G is very secretive still about his techniques and goes to the trouble of covering equipment with cloths when the control room area is visited to preserve the mystery.

[bass man]

Originally Posted by Russell Dawkins

bass man - I guess you mean Van Gelder - but do you know specifically that he records this way? I would be surprised, and I don't think many "great" jazz albums have been done this way since more than two tracks were easily available. Jazz at the Pawnshop being a notable exception.

Rudy Van Gelder... or is this forum too Rock & Roll? - Gearslutz.com

Rudy V G is very secretive still about his techniques and goes to the trouble of covering equipment with cloths when the control room area is visited to preserve the mystery.

Of course I do ...

He was using more than two mics , that's for sure ,and he was able to do that by building custom mixers made from couple of radio broadcast mixers .
He had one mic on the bass , one on the piano and one or sometimes two mics on the drum set , one mic for the soloist - typical quartet and quintet setup ....
Tons of great jazz records are recorded this way and tons of great jazz records are done in iso boths with close mics .....

[seanmccoy]

Originally Posted by Bassmankr

A few are forgetting the old days when they put 30 musicians in a room with no cans, no gobos, and one mic yet got good balance.

True, but when I listen to some of the most classic jazz albums of all time (Sketches of Spain, Kind of Blue, etc.) I always wish I could hear the bass better. Ensemble recordings from the 70's like the ones Creed Taylor produced got much better in that regard—but the compromise was often that most or all of the bass sound came from the pickup. We all want a completely uninhibited, live-in-the-room creative environment for the musicians as well as perfect control over the sound of each instrument for the engineers, but it's impossible to achieve both of those to a 100% degree. We can get darn close given the right situation, but some level of compromise is always necessary.

[vincentvangogo]

YouTube - Jazz club - desolate shore - fast show

Nice.

[Russell Dawkins]

Originally Posted by vincentvangogo

YouTube - Jazz club - desolate shore - fast show

Nice.

Nice, indeed!
Probably in part because it's mono - the ultimate answer?

[bass man]

Originally Posted by seanmccoy

True, but when I listen to some of the most classic jazz albums of all time (Sketches of Spain, Kind of Blue, etc.) I always wish I could hear the bass better. Ensemble recordings from the 70's like the ones Creed Taylor produced got much better in that regard—but the compromise was often that most or all of the bass sound came from the pickup. We all want a completely uninhibited, live-in-the-room creative environment for the musicians as well as perfect control over the sound of each instrument for the engineers, but it's impossible to achieve both of those to a 100% degree. We can get darn close given the right situation, but some level of compromise is always necessary.

Well Sketches of Spain, Kind of Blue are maybe wrong examples. I think that the Paul Chambers sound on this two recordings is extraordinary .
I just love that distant bass recording on this two albums ....

[seanmccoy]

Originally Posted by bass man

Well Sketches of Spain, Kind of Blue are maybe wrong examples. I think that the Paul Chambers sound on this two recordings is extraordinary .
I just love that distant bass recording on this two albums ....

You made me have to run into my house and listen again! Within the context of these recordings, absolutely, it's a nice sound. For reference I listened to some Chick Corea stuff from the 70's with both Stanley Clarke and Eddie Gomez, and even though it was a more pickup-oriented sound, I much preferred it for its substance and size. Very subjective, obviously, but I've always like jazz bass in a prominent place in the mix. I know that even in the mid-50's Scott LaFaro was pushing for a much more clean and forward recorded bass sound.

Do jazz bass players come into modern recording sessions seeking that old-style sound? There isn't a decent acoustic bass player within 300 miles of me, so unfortunately I don't get that experience very often.

[vernier]

Dave Brubeck

[waxx]

for jazz i agree that all players in the same room without (much) gobo's or headphones is often the best solution. You also want to use a lot of roommics and not so many close micing because mostly the players balance themselfs and want to sound as live as possible. This is not the case with rock or pop or so, so this needs a different method.

i mostly set them up in stage setup, and start with rooms and fill the sound with close micing where i miss things in the roomsound. This implies mostly that standing bass, acoustic guitar and woodwinds get close mic'ed, and drums, piano and horns often not (or very minimal and just to ad a little to the roomsound). Bleed is an advantage here and it mixes itself like nothing. You also don't want to use much processing to let it sound as natural as possible. Just capture the performance, don't 'produce the sound', the musicians will do it when necesairy for their goal.

Off course mic placement and room are very very important, just like the quality of the music players. if the room and the players are not good, you need to close mic more to avoid their weaknesses but this compromise the sound you're (or they're) after.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by vernier

Dave Brubeck

Notice where the bass player is? (not to put too fine a point on it...)

[namsabnek]

actually probably between the last 2 posts, for me, is an intelligent way to survive. A lot of drummers don't play with the same concept as in the old days. They aren't trying to be just a part of the sound. The musicians I know that came up before amps and monitors et al, have that consciousness built in to their playing. Really good classical musicians and singers
are the only ones that still have this ability to blend. You can write a piece for 5 trumpets and flute and if the musicians are on their game you will hear the flute just fine.
I at this stage of things (maybe 100 straight ahead jazz recordings) have had just too many problems without separating the upright bass. I still track everybody together when I have to but I'd really rather not. I still wince when the drummer starts getting carried away and all of us, from growing up in the "please turn me up in the headphones" generation are paying less and less attention to the art of blend. Sad but true.

[vernier]

Btw, thats Dave Brubeck-piano, Joe Morello-drums, and Eugene Wright on upright ...probably from 1959.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by vernier

Btw, thats Dave Brubeck-piano, Joe Morello-drums, and Eugene Wright on upright ...probably from 1959.

and Paul Desmond on alto sax - noticeably facing away from the piano/kit mics and into that open area between kit and bass...

[Gobo Diddly]

The color photo is great and a work of art, the joy, the shirts..... You can even see who might be Fred Plaut and Teo Maceo in the CR!!!. But I don't think that Time Out was recorded without gobos....at least the entire sessions...

According to pics up on morrison hotel gallery gobos WERE used on at least one of the three Time Out sessions. Here's another photo from Time Out showing a short gobo on bass and a tall gobo on piano. Plus tall gobos forming a wall behind the rhythm section. Gene Wright and Joe Morello are much closer in this setup, and it makes for a more cohesive rhythm section including piano. Its hard to imagine the rhythm section finding it easy "lock" that spread out all acoustic. Especially since they were doing the odd meter thing for what is arguably the first time in jazz. Weren't gobos used on KOB, too?

The color photo seems a tad implausible the more I think about it. (but I'm a more suspicious person since I voted in Florida in 2000.)

In the BW pic with gobos, Gene Wright has a music stand and Paul Desmond has a stool facing the group but is standing closer to rhythm section, perhaps at the photographers request. It seems like they're recording, but in between takes.

Just looked it up on wikipedia and the LP was the sum of three sessions. June 25, July 1 (Take Five), and Aug 18 (Blue Rondo). So judging by the two pics, they probably setup the sessions differently (or, if you want to believe, it was posed for the color photo).

Historical trivia aside, both photos are practical to the OP on recording jazz today because the sound quality on this 51 year old record is still phenomenal!!! And so minimal, and without headphones (gobos or not) as others on this thread have pointed out.

Single M49 on piano (up and just under the lid, not inches above the hammers), Single M49s for sax and bass (although the bass mic looks down more on the BW pic, and the single U47(?) on drums out front facing down at 45 degrees.

I'm not such a purist that I hate headphones or gobos. Personally I wish we had a upright bass Iso booth, like Systems Two. But reading this thread makes me want to start more simply and add from there. (with the gobos from 30th street that we just got from Clinton Recording!!!! I had to brag since its GS, but no M49s yet)

That said I bet Bass Man can make killer records with everything in stereo (I think I read that Jim Anderson records bass and other single instruments in stereo).

Peace.

PS: RIP jazz photographer, Herman Leonard, who died yesterday the same day as Abbey Lincoln.

[jmikeperkins]

I think one of the most important things in recording jazz is to use fewer mics on the drum kit so you do not get the "rock" drum sound. You would also generally use less compression in both tracking and mixing.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Lightship95

Hi,

While having experience in recording indie/rock/metal/folk i have little in recording jazz music, but would like to.

I have recorded solo sax, trumpet, double bass etc on many recordings with good results but what I'm new to is recording a jazz band playing together in a room.

Please could you guide me on mics and placement. Suggestions for drums, brass etc. I have Calrec, Api, Neve, DAV pres if that has a bearing on choice.

thanks in advance.

\
Hey Buddy, youll probably get better advice(or more of it) in the remote forum.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by DeadPoet

Try to get the musicians to be as comfortable as possible, they'll play better. Better playing = better recording and they'll think you have anything to do with that

^^^This.

If the musicians can hear each other effortlessly and perform comfortably, the hardest part of recording them is resisting the urge to do something. Throw up good mics and get out of the way.

And always be recording!

[namsabnek]

If they aren't super first class players (and even sometimes if they are) there very well may be be blend problems from the drummer playing too loud when he shouldn't be or any other number of possible issues. Just be prepared and do what you have to do to get a mixable session. Sometimes you gotta throw a blanket over the piano or get the upright bass player out of harm's way. Gobos can be your friends. my .02

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Jungle Jazz

Check over at the Remote Possibilities forum where there are many threads about recording jazz, in various configurations. There's a bunch of links at the top of the main RP page that will get you started in a productive direction.

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

\
Hey Buddy, youll probably get better advice(or more of it) in the remote forum.

Thanks for directing the OP to the 'Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording' forum...

As you can see, I have moved the thread to the proper forum.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by PlugHead

and Paul Desmond on alto sax - noticeably facing away from the piano/kit mics and into that open area between kit and bass...

Yes, yes on the identificatons. They were, I was, so young then. Notice the simple drum kit Morello has. Then drag out a recording from that period and see what Joe does with a simple kit. I am still a big fan of that "West Coast" sound that the quartet had and played so well. Not everybody likes them but I still think that quartet was tops. Thanks for the pic.

And thanks for the great thread. I am just starting in recording a local jazz group with spots and will be adding ambient mics, too. This is another tutorial for me. You guys, this forum and this board mean a huge amount to me. It is my continuing master class and I am trying hard to keep up.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by namsabnek

If they aren't super first class players (and even sometimes if they are) there very well may be be blend problems from the drummer playing too loud when he shouldn't be or any other number of possible issues. Just be prepared and do what you have to do to get a mixable session. Sometimes you gotta throw a blanket over the piano or get the upright bass player out of harm's way. Gobos can be your friends. my .02

The photos are from Columbia's 30th Street studio. 100'x100' with 60' ceiling. I've never heard a bad recording from 30th street. But you are correct if dealing with a small-ish room that is not "tuned" for this type of recording.

Anyway, I prefer to record without any isolation or headphones. But gobos are often needed. Also, those "tube traps" are great around a drumset! You can eat up a lot of unwanted low shit that bleeds into everyone else's mic with those things.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by bass man

Great jazz albums are done with couple of mics in one room ala Rudy van Gelder, but also great jazz albums are made with all the instruments being isolated and close recorded with more than one mic .

No need to act like a Jazz Police .....

Right, I agree.

However, there are a class of musicians that play better when they aren't isolated or using cans. Those players should be recorded in a situation that is comfortable for them. This requires a studio that can handle a live band in one space and an engineer that knows how to record that way. This class of musician (usually be-bop-ers, swingers, trad players and other straight-ahead types) is usually opposed to fancy imaging in the mix. None of that wide panning of piano and drums. They prefer a more natural sound with "audience perspective" panning.

It is also quite difficult for horn sections to blend properly when wearing cans. Studio session players can do the "One can on, one can off" thing, but it's still not as good as blending in the room.

Another class of jazz player prefers to have the options open to them that isolated, multi-track recording provides. These players often have a lot of studio experience and don't mind playing in cans.