Thin piano sound when distant micing

[npulsipher]

I've had a couple live recording gigs recently for voice and piano where I just can't get the piano to sound as full as it should. It doesn't sound bad by any means but it just feels like something's missing.

Mics have been in ortf about 10 feet away just above the level of the piano. I cant raise the mics any more than that because the performers are adamant about it.

suggestions?

[davew]

use ribbons...!

[Marik]

The 10' is quite far away, so proximity does not kick in. Can you bring the mics closer, like 6'-7'? But really, the piano level is way low for the mics... That might be the main problem.

Best, M

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by Marik

The 10' is quite far away, so proximity does not kick in. Can you bring the mics closer, like 6'-7'?

I agree. If you can't move in, can you put a spot mic on the piano?

Is the lid open? How much? Short stick?

[npulsipher]

Unfortunately, I can't get any closer. It's a small recital hall, and the mics are on the first row, but the only walkway is between the stage and the first row of seats so 6' puts them right in the middle of the walkway. I figured proximity might be at least part of the problem. I currently use cardiods in this hall (because of the audience noise) but I've heard omnis handle distance better. Is this true?

piano lid was halfway up

I don't suppose there are any eq tricks I could use to fix this?

[npulsipher]

As for ribbons, I would love some! But I'd have to get some better pres too and that isn't in the budget yet.

[MichaelPatrick]

can you put a spot mic on the piano?

[paul999]

If you can't spot a mic on the piano and your 10' away I say change the recording philosophy. If they want a direct sound they must give you access. You are forced into the creative position of trying to capture the whole environment. It IS going to be airy and you won't feel a ton of attack from the keys etc. Try to give them the same feeling they had as they were sitting in the audience. The omni's may be the ticket.

I was in a similar position a while back needing to capture an acoustic performance that used the whole room with singing bowls hand drums and other goodies. I was mostly in one spot though. I used 2, 414's because I would not risk my really good mic's (some of the performance was in complete darkness) They were ORTF about 10 ft off the main area. It came off pretty cool.

[Audiop]

@OP

You don't mention anything about the obvious... EQ!

Have you tried to add some warmth by boosting the lows?

Cardioids have a distance dependent frequency response which means a loss of lows as you move away from the source.

Close in you may need to cut some lows, further away a boost may be necessary.


/Peter

[Roland]

Use omni mic's. You don't say what cardioid mic's you are using, but all cardioid mic's have a poorer bass end response in comparison with most omni's. Proximity effect is only relevant at around 2ft or less.

Regards


Roland

[JonesH]

Originally Posted by Roland

Proximity effect is only relevant at around 2ft or less.

At least bass tip-up, yes. But they will lose bass when used at a distance such as in this case, where also the sound source is comparatively small in relation to the wavelengths. That's the other side of the proximity effect (not aimed at you, Roland, just for value to maybe the OP).

[7Hz]

Can you place some recorded samples and tell us about what is missing?

[Yannick]

Originally Posted by JonesH

At least bass tip-up, yes. But they will lose bass when used at a distance such as in this case, where also the sound source is comparatively small in relation to the wavelengths. That's the other side of the proximity effect (not aimed at you, Roland, just for value to maybe the OP).

This has been discussed elsewhere. A flat cardioid will not lose bass at any distance.
A cardioid that falls off in the bass will sound thin without using the proximity effect.

Proximity effect will add bass, there is no such thing as distance effect.

I've done quite distant piano recordings (without omnis), they don't sound thin, they sound natural, a piano actually has quite a lean bass from an audience perspective.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by davew

use ribbons...!

Is it really a good idea for miking a piano 10 feet away ?

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Roland

Use omni mic's. You don't say what cardioid mic's you are using, but all cardioid mic's have a poorer bass end response in comparison with most omni's. Proximity effect is only relevant at around 2ft or less.

+1

Using cardioids instead of omnis does make the piano sound thin as you lose the bottom octave as the mics don't pick it up.

If you *have* to use a cardioid, then the MKH 8040 goes much lower than most - but still not as low as an omni.

[Roland]

The Bottom note on a piano is 27hz, most Cardioid mics roll off around 40hz, some above that, it's the nature of the capsule/mic design. Omni mics are regularly flat to 20hz some even lower than that.

Regards


Roland

[Yannick]

Sennheiser MKH mics (cardioids) are maybe 3 dB down at 30Hz..., flat to 40Hz
Royer SF1 is also 3 dB down at 30Hz

A piano rolls off by itself below 65 Hz (around 12 dB/octave)

I've heard a lot of omni AB recordings where the piano sounds quite distant and has too much low bass, which does not sound natural to me.

But as I said, this discussion has been done before.

If it sounds too thin with cardioids, then:

a. the mics roll off by design
b. problematic acoustics
c. bad mic placement (although it seems OK in the OP situation)
d. thin piano

The height (just above the level of the piano) should give a less bright sound, so it should not sound thin. Maybe post examples / pics ?

Maybe the pianist doesn't use his left hand (no joke) - I've recorded players in the same hall/same piano/same mics - some sound BIG, others sound so light and thin you can barely hear the bass notes ...

But it is always easier to blame the recording

[joelpatterson]

Is it really out of the question to place an inconspicuous ORTF set of some pencil SDC's right staring into the open maw of the half open lid?

It can be maddening to deal with the stage directors of these things... they seem to imagine that if you would only hold up the mics to where your ears are, all will be well...

[John Brook]

You say the recordings of voice and piano? Where is the singer standing in relation to the piano? Is the vocalist singing with or without amplification?

Perhaps the piano sounds distant because the pianist is trying not to cover up the singer, which is really easy to do.

In wave propagation, there is something termed "free space path loss." Look it up on wiki. Audio waves mimic electrical waves in their behavior, for the most part. So you can expect not only an intensity roll off, but a frequency roll off, which may be what's really making the piano sound "thin."

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by John Brook

So you can expect not only an intensity roll off, but a frequency roll off, which may be what's really making the piano sound "thin."

The attenuation due to the wave propagation divergence does not depend on frequency. The sound absorption by air do. But this effect, which attenuates the highs more than the lows, is not of concern at 10' distance.

[John Brook]

You might want to bone up on your wave theory, apertures, etc.

[9sbean]

The only solution for distant miking with good low freq. response is "Pressure Microphone", i.e. Omni.

Schopes MK22 capsule was developed to provide similar low freq. response to the omni, yet exhibits directivity to the cardioid for better stereo imaging.

[jnorman]

i'm with roland - use omnis. i record pianos quite regularly at distances of 10 feet or more, and i dont seem to have any problem with a thin sound, so i am not sure exactly what is going on other than mic choice. there are certainly some SDC cardioids out there with rather thin low ends.

i recorded a concert like this was last sunday, where i was perhaps 20 feet from the piano out at front stage lip, and i used a center pair of km140s in ORTF with a flanking pair of DPA omnis (spread about 18"). during post, i used perhaps 80% 140s and 20% omnis, and it is a very full and nice image with no freq response probs.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by jnorman

i'm with roland - use omnis. i record pianos quite regularly at distances of 10 feet or more, and i dont seem to have any problem with a thin sound, so i am not sure exactly what is going on other than mic choice. there are certainly some SDC cardioids out there with rather thin low ends.

i recorded a concert like this was last sunday, where i was perhaps 20 feet from the piano out at front stage lip, and i used a center pair of km140s in ORTF with a flanking pair of DPA omnis (spread about 18"). during post, i used perhaps 80% 140s and 20% omnis, and it is a very full and nice image with no freq response probs.

Were the DPAs placed 18" from each side of the ORTF (36" between omnis), or 18" from each other (18" between omnis)?

[jnorman]

michael - they were 18-20" apart from each other (9-10" out from either side of the center pair). i wasnt really intending to use them as flanks, or i would have spread them wider. i was just running speparate pairs of ORTF and spaced omnis thinking that one pair or the other would be useable - it just turned out that a blend of the two sounded best to me. the ORTF km140s turned out a very nice clean sound but the image was a bit tight. by bringing up the omnis to about -20dB, i got a more spacious, deeper and wider soundstage image and a little bit more hall ambience. very nice overall.

[npulsipher]

I'll post a quick clip for reference. Thanks for all your advice so far!

A few technical limitations, my interface only has two inputs, so things like multiple pairs and spot mics are impossible.

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by jnorman

michael - they were 18-20" apart from each other (9-10" out from either side of the center pair). i wasnt really intending to use them as flanks, or i would have spread them wider. i was just running speparate pairs of ORTF and spaced omnis thinking that one pair or the other would be useable - it just turned out that a blend of the two sounded best to me. the ORTF km140s turned out a very nice clean sound but the image was a bit tight. by bringing up the omnis to about -20dB, i got a more spacious, deeper and wider soundstage image and a little bit more hall ambience. very nice overall.

Thanks! It's nice to know what works for others as I may need it someday too.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by npulsipher

I'll post a quick clip for reference. Thanks for all your advice so far!

A few technical limitations, my interface only has two inputs, so things like multiple pairs and spot mics are impossible.

That sounds like an excellent vocal mic on a great singer... with something like the typical "piano in the distant background" you'd get from only a vocal mic.

I'd agree that alone the piano sounds like it's floating out of a window and through an alleyway and around a corner... but I swear there are people who would tell you it sounds just fine.

[rumleymusic]

I'll post a quick clip for reference. Thanks for all your advice so far!

Yeah, it just sounds like you have them way too far back. If you are stuck using only the two cardioid mics you have, get in closer. But be careful, because vocalists are notorious for moving way too much and facing different directions while singing. I tend to place the mics more to the side in this situation to keep them on a less wandering axis and stabilize the image.

[amfortas2006]

Try experimenting with EQ-ing, adding reverb or try M-S.
The piano is not a Ferrari, and the pianist is not Radu Lupu, so if they got used to listening to DG recordings, and want to sound like that, tell them to get them a Steinway D and the Wigmore Hall. And most af all, practicing