Thin piano sound when distant micing

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by npulsipher

... my interface only has two inputs, so things like multiple pairs and spot mics are impossible.

I'd think about getting a small mixer. Broadcast engineers have done it for years. It takes some practice and requires decent isolated monitoring, but then you could at least blend in some spot mics when needed.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by John Brook

You might want to bone up on your wave theory, apertures, etc.

tutt
Who spoke first about wave propagation ?

Originally Posted by amfortas2006

The piano is not a Ferrari,

Nor a Fazioli.

[Marik]

Originally Posted by npulsipher

I'll post a quick clip for reference..

It is much easier to talk when there is a little clip. The main problems in your situation are a small hall, and as I suspect a 7 footer--together with short stick it always sounds with some weird boxiness. In those conditions the optimal miking is crucial, but it seems it is not an option.
In this situation I think only ribbons would be worth trying, but again, since they are fig8 you can easily get the audience noise, etc.

The only solution, as I see is to EQ the heck out of this recording. Here I post a quicky, just to show what a crappy ProTools software EQ can do in 10 minutes. Of course, an outboard gear and a nice reverb will give much better results.

Also, the soundstage is pretty narrow, so I'd try to re-matrix the recording to widen it up. It will be pretty hard to fix a relationship between the vocalist and piano placement in the image, though.

Best, Mark Fouxman
Samar Audio & Microphone Design

[JonesH]

Originally Posted by Yannick

This has been discussed elsewhere. A flat cardioid will not lose bass at any distance.
A cardioid that falls off in the bass will sound thin without using the proximity effect.

Proximity effect will add bass, there is no such thing as distance effect.

Sorry for the slight off-topic discussion, but I'd really like to know more about this. From what I've learned and observed, proximity effect works both ways - more bass when used too close, less bass when used too far away. This chart from DPA would seem to indicate just that:

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/~/medi...ty-outline.gif

If you could post a link to something concluding that proximity effect only boosts bass in the extreme nearfield (which is what I gather from your post), I'd be thankful. I could also have misunderstood you, in which case I apologize.

[Eric Weber]

You haven't indicated what microphones you are using? If they are cardiod units intended for vocals rather than distant use that could be the issue.
Vocal cardiod's are intended to be close to flat on the low end at a few centimeters.... rather than a meter or more.

If that is not the case, you could try moving the Piano closer to the back wall of the stage by a few feet... there may be a room node with little bass where your microphones are placed...

Rgds:
Eric

[Roland]

Originally Posted by JonesH

Sorry for the slight off-topic discussion, but I'd really like to know more about this. From what I've learned and observed, proximity effect works both ways - more bass when used too close, less bass when used too far away. This chart from DPA would seem to indicate just that:

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/~/medi...ty-outline.gif

If you could post a link to something concluding that proximity effect only boosts bass in the extreme nearfield (which is what I gather from your post), I'd be thankful. I could also have misunderstood you, in which case I apologize.

I think that some of the explanations, (probably as much as anyone's, mine) are not clear about the issues with cardioid's.

The nature of cardioid mic's is that at very close distances they exhibit a bass boost (proximity effect). We are talking from an cm too just less than a metre. This effect drops off as you move backwards from the source until at around a metre (or just under) it no longer happens. As you move further back from the source beyond this point the bass level should stay the same. Usually on the manufacturers frequency response diagrams proximity effect is shown for one or several distances from the source.

The bass levels of Cardioid mic's are often lower than omni's, particularly from the same range, (i.e. Sennheiser MKH40 in comparison with an MKH20, or a KM140 compared to a KM130), this is due to the way they derive their polar pattern. Too my knowledge there is no reason why after moving out of the "proximity effect" (bass boost) region the bass will drop any further on a Cardioid mic, (beyond the mic's standard "flat" frequency plot).

I notice that someone mentioned above that the hall sounds small and they were suspicious that the piano was only a 7 footer, these issues could be part of the problem. It is also possible that in the original recording the mic's were set up in a wavelength "null" position in the hall, this could lead to a lack of bass. Not having been present in the venue or listening to the original sample posted here, i can't say, but these could also be contributing factors.

Roland

[Brett]

There's really only two ways to make the piano more present, either change rooms, or move the mic's closer; i deal with this alot, the classical players don't want to see the mic's, well, they will have to live with the recording. No matter what mic you choose, the room ambience will come into play

[Yannick]

Originally Posted by JonesH

If you could post a link to something concluding that proximity effect only boosts bass in the extreme nearfield (which is what I gather from your post), I'd be thankful. I could also have misunderstood you, in which case I apologize.

The misundestanding originates in the fact that a lot of cardioid mics are optimised to be used as spot mics, ie in the near field, thus using proximity effect to get a linear response.

Microphone Proximity Effect

scroll down to the DPA 4011, it is flat when used at 30cm, so it will sound very thin at 3m !

I'm looking for a useful link with more theory, but the one I had has broken image links, so it is not very useful anymore ...

[JonesH]

Originally Posted by Yannick

scroll down to the DPA 4011, it is flat when used at 30cm, so it will sound very thin at 3m !

I'm looking for a useful link with more theory, but the one I had has broken image links, so it is not very useful anymore ...

Thanks Roland and Yannick, for your replies.
Yeah, but the question is; will it sound even more thin at 5, 10 and 20 meters?

From the 4015 proximity effect diagram, it certainly seems to indicate that (to me! I might misinterpret it of course), since it shows that for 10 meters there is even more roll-off.

Thanks for your time.

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by John Willett

+1

Using cardioids instead of omnis does make the piano sound thin as you lose the bottom octave as the mics don't pick it up.

If you *have* to use a cardioid, then the MKH 8040 goes much lower than most - but still not as low as an omni.

Thats a good suggestion, however regarding the omnis, by its mere nature, in order to achieve the same relationship of direct/reflected (or diffused) sound of an omni vs a cardioid, the omni has to be a lot closer than the cardiod, so he would have to take the omnis closer to the piano if he wants to retain the similar relationship of direct-to-diffuse sound (in other words how much room he wants in his mic).

Tighter polar patterns can be placed further away from the source than the more open or omni-like patterns and have the same relationship of diffuse/direct sound, with the downside of having a worse freq. response.

Note that im talking about the diffuse and direct sound relationship, so im not saying both will sound the same.

A good chart that illustrates this very well can be found in Tonmeister Technology page 28., which clearly ilustrates that a cardioid can be placed 60% further away, than the distance between an omni and the source and still retain the same direct-to-diffuse sound relationship. Although this of course is strictly theoretical, in the end it depends on several factors, specially your ears

[Yannick]

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind...loss#msg_82055

the last three posts are very relevant to DPA.

In my experience, above 2m there is no discernable difference with the MKH Sennheiser series. Theoretically maybe 1 dB, but this can be easily compensated just by having more room sound and less dry sound (as I said, a piano IS thin in a room with weak basses)

In Royerlabs documentation they argue that their ribbons will be flat at 6 feet (at 30Hz !), here they indicate proximity effect to be +3dB. This would mean that you would loose maybe 2dB at 30 Hz at 12 feet. That is already quite far and very easily compensated by a small mastering EQ - if it would be needed.

[JonesH]

Originally Posted by Yannick

PSW Recording Forums: Klaus Heyne's Mic Lab => directional microphones and "bass loss"

Thanks for the link, very interesting. Will read and get back.

[Kees de Visser]

Originally Posted by Yannick

I'm looking for a useful link with more theory, but the one I had has broken image links, so it is not very useful anymore ...

I guess you meant Shure's Find an Answer.
There is a (accurate?) copy on the sengpielaudio website: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/WhyDoes...ffectOccur.pdf.
Perhaps that can help to understand the mechanism. Pity that the AES tutorial by David Josephson is for members only: AES E-Library: A Brief Tutorial on Proximity Effect

[studer58]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Is it really out of the question to place an inconspicuous ORTF set of some pencil SDC's right staring into the open maw of the half open lid?

It can be maddening to deal with the stage directors of these things... they seem to imagine that if you would only hold up the mics to where your ears are, all will be well...

Very true Joel, and remember it's often not the mics themselves so much as the stands which are the problem, so go for the thinnest ones around if possible. For a sound that's guaranteed to please at least the pianist, check out this link from the other piano thread circulating today on Remote Possibilities: The Doghouse NYC - Recording the Grand Piano with particular reference to 'The Best Seat In The House' (picture and text, about halfway down the page). Iv'e seen a variant on this approach which places a pair of SD omni mics about 2 feet off each shoulder of the pianist, at head height, pointing towards the piano innards. It's sure to give you a player's perspective on the piano, and amounts to a spot mic on that instrument. Additionally, from the audience point of view, they'd be seeing just 1 mic stand near the pianist's shoulder (the other is 'behind' him, and thus of no concern to music director/audience) This leaves you with the task of capturing voice alone, which you have licked anyway.
Ray

[npulsipher]

Thanks for all your great advice. I was able to convince a client to let me move the mics higher and closer and with a few eq tweaks the piano's back! However this most recent gig was in a different hall so it made things a little bit easier set-up wise.

[7rojo7]

Schoertler on the lid
1 omni close to the singer (flying)
ORTF pair with the singer in the hole
Audience mics
align the mono piano and the mono singer to the ORTF pair and forget about the ORTF pair except to bring life to your mono recording. Audience mics can save you a reverb.
Keep it simple and smart
There's much to be done with little at hand

[ebs]

Thin piano sound when distant micing

Gearslutz.com > The Forums > Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording

Thin piano sound when distant micing

Originally Posted by Kees de Visser

I guess you meant Shure's

Originally Posted by Kees de Visser

Find an Answer.

Originally Posted by Kees de Visser

There is a (accurate?) copy on the sengpielaudio website: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/WhyDoesProximityEffectOccur.pdf.
Perhaps that can help to understand the mechanism. Pity that the AES tutorial by David Josephson is for members only: AES E-Library: A Brief Tutorial on Proximity Effect

If you need this Josephson AES paper, I can help you.

Eberhard Sengpiel (ebs)
esengpiel@t-online.de
http://www.sengpielaudio.com

[Kees de Visser]

Originally Posted by ebs

If you need this Josephson AES paper, I can help you.

That's very kind. Do you think it explains proximity better than the (Shure) article on your website ?
If so, it would be very helpful for this public discussion if you could post a few quotes of the article (AFAIK it's ok to quote small parts of AES papers).
There doesn't seem to be much good info about the proximity effect online.

[Storyville]

Marik's eq helped a lot, and he's definitely right that a little matrix work could give a little more width.

Ultimately, it ain't gonna get much better though. It's a very natural, open capture - pretty good as a room/ambiance track - might get a little more tone out of the keys if the mics were higher up though. In a perfect world, and if it were me, I'd spot both the vocalist and the piano.

There are some nice microphones made by DPA that are somewhat akin to lav-mics-for-piano. Those can slip in pretty unnoticed - but I think they are a bit pricey.

[7rojo7]

Originally Posted by 7rojo7

Schoertler on the lid
1 omni close to the singer (flying)
ORTF pair with the singer in the hole
Audience mics
align the mono piano and the mono singer to the ORTF pair and forget about the ORTF pair except to bring life to your mono recording. Audience mics can save you a reverb.
Keep it simple and smart
There's much to be done with little at hand

You can put up an AB pair for kiks and remain within 8 trks
Positioning the performers is crucial
Put the yeller in the armpit of the piano an mix it acoustically
Chances are that if the piano sonds thin on the recording, it sounded thin in the hall too

[ebs]

Originally Posted by Kees de Visser

There doesn't seem to be much good info about the proximity effect online.

I have a collection of thougts about the proximitx effect, but in German:
"Der Nahbesprechungseffekt in der ständigen Diskussion"
Der Nahbesprechungseffekt in der ständigen Diskussion - sengpielaudio
All German students taking this topic for their diploma thesis are coming to me to get some information.

Best regards ebs
Forum zur Mikrofonaufnahme und Tonstudiotechnik ♪♫♪ Tontechnik Eberhard Sengpiel - sengpielaudio ist sengspielaudio und Sengpiel ist Sengspiel sengpielaudio.de Elektro-Akustik Audio Lehre Ausbildung Studio Tips Tipps Mikrofone Tonau

[Mark A. Jay]

Originally Posted by npulsipher

I'll post a quick clip for reference. Thanks for all your advice so far!

A few technical limitations, my interface only has two inputs, so things like multiple pairs and spot mics are impossible.

Personally, and because I am very 'vectored' toward this specific technique - especially for acoustic performances - I would use a mannequin head microphone (i.e. Neumann type KU 100, Head Acoustics, Bruel & Kjaer 4100, KEMAR et al). I have made some very good sounding recordings of piano / orchestra using only these two channels, so your two channels are not a limitation per se. However, such recordings (true binaural) will indeed sound most accurate and (in my opinion) arguably 'best' when heard over headphones.

The biggest constraint that I have run into is having it seen - some people find a facsimilie of a human head with artificial ears off-putting, and so I have (at times) had to drape a section of speaker grille cloth over it or otherwise conceal it.

You might try something like a Crown S.A.S.S. - like all things in life it seems that some people like this mic and others hate it. Personally, I like its sound and in some instances, it's a good alternative to a true binaural approach (others have posted some very good sounding recordings made of acoustic performances using the S.A.S.S.). In other words, some people prefer the sound of the S.A.S.S. to the sound of a binaural head microphone especially when the sound is to be played back over speakers (because the S.A.S.S. is not a true binaural microphone). I personally think the KU 100 binaural microphone sounds very good over speakers, yet truly shines when played back over headphones.

I guess I would take much of that into consideration (speaker, headphone, or both to be utilized by the 'consumer') when deciding how to mic the setup.

The 'other' answer is, of course, to find a good low-cost four-channel recorder so that you may set up additional microphones and thus have some options during mixdown. I am a big believer in the saying 'better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it'. In this case 'it' refers to the additional microphones.

As far as affordable portable recorders...cruise the forums and you will find some good suggestions out there (personally, I like (and use) the Edirol R-44's).

Good luck.

[Mark A. Jay]

Originally Posted by npulsipher

I'll post a quick clip for reference. Thanks for all your advice so far!

A few technical limitations, my interface only has two inputs, so things like multiple pairs and spot mics are impossible.

OK, so here is an example of a KU 100 (Neumann) used about 3-4 meters in front of the piano and about 8m or so in front of the orchestra. That is, the piano was out in front of the orchestra (facing stage left) and the mannequin head microphone in front of the piano, facing the orchestra proper while the rehearsal took place.

This recording excerpt comes from a rehearsal, but again, only two channels were used here - the KU 100 has two elements in it (left and right ear microphones).

Remember: This is a binaural recording...so remember to use headphones to get the full effect.

Good? Bad? Neutral?

[tenkas]

Originally Posted by Mark A. Jay

OK, so here is an example of a KU 100 (Neumann) used about 3-4 meters in front of the piano and about 8m or so in front of the orchestra. That is, the piano was out in front of the orchestra (facing stage left) and the mannequin head microphone in front of the piano, facing the orchestra proper while the rehearsal took place.

This recording excerpt comes from a rehearsal, but again, only two channels were used here - the KU 100 has two elements in it (left and right ear microphones).

Remember: This is a binaural recording...so remember to use headphones to get the full effect.

Good? Bad? Neutral?

Nice recording, sounds a bit dull to me in the high end. The pianist is the weakest link in the chain here... not your recording.

[Mark A. Jay]

Originally Posted by tenkas

Nice recording, sounds a bit dull to me in the high end. The pianist is the weakest link in the chain here... not your recording.

Yep, there's not a lot of top end in that one as the space was a concert hall and the mic-to-piano distance was pretty considerable compared to a more 'intimate' venue.

However, here's a point of contrast - this (link below) is from a live jazz trio performance that I did a few years back; the mic is considerably closer, so there's more presence and a bit more top end on the piano. Again, this one's a KU-100 only, so it's binaural in nature, and you'll need good headphones for it to sound 'right':

What is your favorite binaural recording?

...and this link as well for the piano (particularly the 2nd mp3 (05-Boogin' Encore [Optimized For Headphones] as that's jazz piano), whereas the classical link is an orchestral rehearsal and absent any piano:

WOW! Check this out dudes!

Mark

[npulsipher]

I forgot about this thread. I compared the sample I posted here to a more recent recording of soprano and piano in the same venue and it was night and day difference! It's nice to know that I'm actually improving.

Thanks to everyone out there that helped me learn the skills that put me where I am at today!

cheers!

[tenkas]

Originally Posted by Mark A. Jay

Yep, there's not a lot of top end in that one as the space was a concert hall and the mic-to-piano distance was pretty considerable compared to a more 'intimate' venue.

However, here's a point of contrast - this (link below) is from a live jazz trio performance that I did a few years back; the mic is considerably closer, so there's more presence and a bit more top end on the piano. Again, this one's a KU-100 only, so it's binaural in nature, and you'll need good headphones for it to sound 'right':

What is your favorite binaural recording?

...and this link as well for the piano (particularly the 2nd mp3 (05-Boogin' Encore [Optimized For Headphones] as that's jazz piano), whereas the classical link is an orchestral rehearsal and absent any piano:

WOW! Check this out dudes!

Mark

Nice stuff! I which I could afford using a KU 100... Listening with Sennheiser HD280 (not the best but alright) and it's really cool how it is easy to point the instruments in the stereo field.

Again, I find the orchestral recording to be missing some top end (or maybe a little too much mud)

[Mark A. Jay]

Originally Posted by tenkas

Nice stuff! I which I could afford using a KU 100... Listening with Sennheiser HD280 (not the best but alright) and it's really cool how it is easy to point the instruments in the stereo field.

Again, I find the orchestral recording to be missing some top end (or maybe a little too much mud)

The orchestral bit was from a rehearsal and was never really intended for release; the conductor wanted to know what the rehearsal sounded like at that point in the venue, so it was more of a didactic tool rather than an aesthetic one at that point.

Also, keep in mind that the KU 100 can be obtained via eBay (that's where I found mine), so that helps mitigate the cost (you can find them used for around $5k, depending upon condition, but they are rare, so they tend to go quickly when they are up for sale).

One thing to keep in mind though - binaural mics need not be used as the only mic in a production (when a binaural mic is used). I have used the KU 100 as part of a conventional stereo recording on several occasions, and blending its sound with those from mics in an ORTF or other conventional stereo approach can yield some great results that also make it more 'universal' than would be a binaural-only recording. That is, it can help make the recording sound very good when played back over speakers in a 'typical' set up. If you A/B, or A/C, etc your mixes (i.e. x % binaural, y% conventional, and so on) you can often find a really nice balance between the two types of signals and tweak the mix to the desired end result.

Hope this helps...

Mark

[tenkas]

Thanks for the info!

$5000 is my food and appartment budget for a year... if it goes for $500 I might be able to give it a go... e.

[David Spearritt]

I would try to find a pair of supercardioids (MK41's ideal) to bring the piano closer, and then add plenty of bass EQ to the result. Trouble is they will also bring the singer closer, unless you can get high enough.

Any chance of flying the piano mics?