Recording piano & chamber music on budget

[NathanShirley]

First of all I should say that I am a classical composer and pianist, not an audio engineer. I have done a good bit of research into acoustics and recording placement/equipment, but there are a few questions I haven't quite found the answers to (searching the internet and searching this forum).

I have also made a few of my own recordings, so I have very basic experience with some classical recording techniques. My questions are mainly regarding microphones-

I would like to purchase a pair of microphones which I can use to record my own performances, piano solo, and some fairly small chamber groups, with and without piano. Not being an expert, I would like some mics that are fairly forgiving (in terms of stereo problems, comb, etc.). Also, these recordings would take place in a number of halls/churchs, some with quite good acoustics, others with mediocre acoustics.

I am leaning towards a cardioid pair, as I have used them before mainly in X/Y and ORTF patterns. But I see on this forum that many of you seem to swear by omni, even for solo piano and even in less than perfect acoustics. I wouldn't need to record any medium to large (symphonic) ensembles myself as for these performances there is almost always a house engineer.

And one of my main questions/concerns is regarding mic self noise, and noise floor issues. I own a pair of the MXL V63M -
MXL V63M Condenser Studio Microphone
And I have been very dissatisfied with their performance, mainly because the noise level is unacceptable (and in general they just sound cheap for reasons I don't know, but suspect is partly due to their frequency response being too narrow for piano).

But in looking at mic S/N specs and a-weighted specs, I see that the large diaphragm cardioid mics tend to be much quieter than even some of the high end small diaphragm omni mics. Is this perhaps because the self noise level is measured differently on large vs. small diaphragms, or some other reason??

And finally here is the big limitation- My budget for this is VERY limited. I would like to spend no more than about $400 on a pair of mics. Here are the quietest cardioid's I could find with 20hz to 20khz in my price range, MXL-
MXL V87 Low-Noise Condenser Microphone
Also I found a stereo mic for half the price, not as quite, but still seems fairly quite. But as I couldn't do ORTF with this, I am leaning away from it, MXL V67Q-
MXL V67Q Stereo Condenser Microphone
And MXL also makes a 20 to 20 pencil mic with a switch for cardioid or omni for about $110 a piece, MXL V67N -
MXL V67N Small Diaphragm Instrument Microphone

I'm certainly not married to MXL, it just seems for the price range I'm in they might be the way to go. I have read great things about the Oktava mics, but for $700 I could only justify this if there was no way I could get anything decent for less, and the S/N ratio for the Oktavas made me wonder if they would be perfectly quite.

As for preamps, I own a MicroTrack which has a digital input, or I could go into it with the Phantom 1/4 inch jacks, however I would likely use a Korg tube preamp that has a digital out as I have access to this. I was considering buying my own Art tube preamp with digital out, but I think the Korg is likely better. And I figured tube was the way to go here as I could get a lower noise floor with the tube compressing the loud end, plus I like a little warmth and don't want to have to do any post processing on the recordings if I can get away with it.

I apologize for the extreme length of this post, but I've had trouble figuring out some of these issues and thought some of you might have good input. My main concerns are keeping the noise floor very low, and in general getting as "professional" sounding as possible with mics in the $400 or less range. If I have to I can spend more, but I have some dental work that I'm putting on the back burner already...

So I'm not looking for SACD or HDCD perfection, just good solid '98% of people wouldn't notice' quality. Any thoughts would be much appreciated. And thanks!

[didier.brest]

Hi,

I'm myself an amateur pianist and I record in my living room. You will find here and here some test files recorded with 6 cardio mic pairs and 3 omni mic pairs, all small diaphragms, the prices of which range from 100 (Samson CO2) to 2500 € (Schoeps CMC6-MK21) for a pair. There is also the Oktava MK012 with its cardio and its omni caps. So you can judge by yourself!

Didier

[NathanShirley]

Hello Didier,

Thanks for the links, very interesting.

After a casual listening of your 9 samples, I was surprised at how similar most sounded (though bare in mind I was listening with headphones through my somewhat noisy internal soundcard of my computer, I would have liked to download these files, and listened on my portable CD player).

I suppose right off I noticed that the omni mics indeed sound more noisy overall. #8 was terribly noisy, #9 a little noisy. #7 I couldn't detect any noise above my noisy soundcard, so I'd assume that was the DPA pair. And I assume the Avenson mics (which I've never heard of) must be pretty cheap (#8??).

As for the cardioid mics- The only one that was really noisy was #6, so I'd say that must be the cheap pair. #s 5 and 4 were a little noisy, about like #9. Though #4 had some weird airy unpleasantness. The others were not noticeably noisy with my cheap soundcard. So overall I kind of liked #s 1,2,3 and 7 about the same, some were a little brighter some a little darker, but they sounded pretty good to me (though some picked up the pedal/damper noises more than others).

Also, I think the fairly close mic'ing wasn't to my taste, I thought the damper pedal noise was distracting, and sometimes the hammer noise was apparent. But overall, considering you did this in your living room, I was VERY impressed, very good sound overall, and very nice piano tone. You can go ahead and send me both keys by PM if you have a moment.

I suppose in a hall, with added distance from the piano, the noise would be even more of an issue, right? Are small diaphragm mics considered more desirable for mic'ing pianos because they tend to have a more flat frequency response?

After hearing your samples I'm leaning a bit more towards the quieter larger mics. Many thanks!

~Nathan

[jnorman]

nathan - LDCs are typically not the mics of choice for location recording of classical music due to two reasons: 1) SDCs offer smoother off-axis response than large capsule mics, and 2) smaller capsule mics have better transient response than large capsule mics.

do not let just self-noise specs decide a microphone choice for you. even the rather noisy very small diaphragm mics such as the DPA 4061s, Avenson STO's, and Earthworks can be very effective at capturing intimate chamber and classical music. there are ways to deal with small amounts of self noise during post processing.

the choice of cardioid vs omni mics is somewhat personal, and somehwat dictated by the recording environment. while the use of a pair of nice small capsule cardioid mics in ORTF offers good audience rejection and a clear picture of the soundstage (instrument placement in the LR spread), spaced omnis can often give a width and depth sensation that cannot be provided by directional mics. omnis also do not suffer from proximity effect and will provide a much broader and more even freq response. omnis do not provide quite a precise picture of hte soundstage image.

of all the expenditures you might make for recording gear, investing in the best mics you can afford is the best bet to improve your results. affordable mics you might consider might include a used pair of AKG C391s, which have interchangeable capsules and both the ck91 cardioid and the ck92 omni capsule are reasonably flat. a used pair of DPA 4060s or 4061s (omnis) is within your price range, and there are many examples of pros here using those mics to make VERY nice recordings (and again, the self noise on those is mid-20's). another good choice is a used pair of octava mc-012's, also with interchangeable caps. AT4041 and 4021 (both cards) are good, and the new AT4022 omni is quite wonderful for the money (by bargaining, you shold be able to find a pair of 4021s or 4022s for around $500 new). there are other good choices too. keep reading here inthe remote forum, and listen to as many sample recordings as you can find.

[amfortas2006]

Try getting used microphones, you can get good quality microphones if you have enough patience. I would go Audio Technica or something that was built decently.

The microphones are the most important piece of gear for your purpose, have patience, it will be worth it.

[jnorman]

nathan - browse through this thread. it will show you what kind of equipment is used by the folks in the remote forum.

The Remote Possibilities Mic Locker List

[NathanShirley]

Thanks for the valuable info! You have answered a lot of my questions right off.

First of all I had no idea about the smoother off-axis response in SDCs, I had assumed all cardioid suffered about the same from this (and this had been my main concern with opting for a cardioid over an omni).

And second I had assumed all size diaphragm condenser mics were adequate when it came to transient response (as opposed to ribbon mics for example). So this is all great information.

I suppose an MDC mic would naturally be in-between the SDC and LDC mics in these two regards? Also, I have heard you generally get more sensitivity from an LDC mic, is this perhaps only pertinent to close mic'ing? And I tend to like a slightly warmer sound and heard that LDCs tend to be warmer, but maybe this is just a lack of clarity and the tube amplifier would supply my desired warm and retain the clarity of an SDC??

Regarding self noise- I'm surprised to hear you don't think this is such an issue and can be adequately fixed in post. I have experimented in removing hiss in recordings using software with a variety of results. With VERY noisy recordings, like old historical recordings with loud hiss, I have been amazed at how well it removes the noise to a point where the recording is much more listen-able. However, when trying to remove subtle hiss from my own recordings, I've noticed that if I remove the hiss to my liking, it creates strange artifacts in the music, garbling it, and I haven't successfully found a happy balance. What software are you using to remove this noise? Perhaps this is my problem?

Also good points about the differences in omni vs. cardioid- I have read a good bit about this and thought cardioid would be the way to go as I wouldn't always be in halls with great acoustics. However having mics with interchangeable caps does seem like a great option. I suppose this is one of the reasons I mentioned the MXL V67N SDC, but the slightly low S/N ratio of 78db was scaring me. Does anyone have any experience with these? Too Bad MXL doesn't make a higher end version of these yet (I think they are only $120 a piece). Do you think the technical knowledge/experience needed to set up a spaced pair of omni mics adequately should be a reason for me to go with cardioids (comb effects and all)?

And thanks for all the microphone suggestions, I'll certainly be looking into all of these, and yes I certainly need to listen to some more samples and keep reading. I've been hesitant to consider used mics, mainly from fear of not having enough microphone knowledge to know if I'm getting a damaged pair. Would you recommend a reputable source of used mics? Is it a good idea to buy used mics but new caps?

Sorry to bombard with questions, feel free to answer at leisure and only what you wish!

Thanks again!

[jnorman]

nathan - i would not try to acheive warmth through the use of tubes or other outboard gear. while some preamps do provide certain types of color to your signal chain, it is genrally due to the overall topology of the circuit design, and not just due to the use of tubes or transformers.

i use ReaFir for noise reduction.

all non-coincident stereo pair mic setups will suffer from phase issues when collapsed to mono. ORTF is fairly easy to set up and get pretty consistently decent results from. spaced omnis can be a bit trickier, but can often provide superior results. many people use both types in conjunction with each other, such as a center ORTF pair flanked by a pair of omnis (spaced anywhere from 18" to several feet depending on the size of the source). this method allows you to choose which pair sounds best during post, and also allows to use a blend of the two pairs which can often be the best sounding solution.

go visit the yard sale forum at taperssection.com - it is a great place to find used gear in all price ranges - lots of friendly folks there.

[NathanShirley]

Thanks, again all very valuable information.

I'll take a look at that forum as well.

~Nathan

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by NathanShirley

I would have liked to download these files, and listened on my portable CD player.

Well, just do it! Click on the file name rather than on the play sign of the streaming player. Moreover you have a link in post 5 of the cardio test fot downloading the wave files if you are not happy with 320 kbit/s mp3.

Originally Posted by NathanShirley

I suppose right off I noticed that the omni mics indeed sound more noisy overall. #8 was terribly noisy, #9 a little noisy. #7 I couldn't detect any noise above my noisy soundcard, so I'd assume that was the DPA pair. And I assume the Avenson mics (which I've never heard of) must be pretty cheap (#8??).

The Avenson and the DPA 4060 (do not make a confusion with the much more expensive DPA 4006, one of the most used mic for top classical piano recording) are 1/4 " diaphragm mic, which make them less quiet than most of the normal size SDCs who have about 1/2 " diaphragm. Note also that the placement is the same for all mics, so not as convenient for all mics. For instance the DPA 4060 can work quite nicely very close to the strings where the noise level is less an issue. Adding digital reverb help the recording recovering some room. Examples here attached.

[NathanShirley]

Ha, oh yes, I don't know how I missed those MP3 links just to the right. And no, I'm sure those Hi-Fi MP3s will be fine (my CD player has a good decoder). I'll download them and give them a closer listen.

Yes, I've done a bit adding reverb to a few of my own living room recordings. and it does improve things a good bit.

Thanks.

[NathanShirley]

Alright, I just had a chance to download the MP3s and listen much more critically. But it's funny, I still notice the same slight differences in some being a little brighter and some a little darker, and those that have the noise floor issues. But in general none jump out as being significantly 'better' than any others. Some of the especially bright ones like #5 aren't so much to my taste, but they certainly don't sound much inferior to some of the darker ones like #2 or #3 (I think if I was forced to pick a favorite I might go with #3, but it would be a tough call, and totally subjective). Also, since I have hardly any knowledge of these microphones, or most of their prices, I don't think knowing which is which has biased me! Also, some of the ones with the noise issues might have a great sound, but I really couldn't get past their noise.

Well this certainly makes the Oktava mics more attractive to me (and I just looked up the other mic and see it's way out of my price range). But it also really makes me curious about some of the well reviewed lower priced mics.

Thanks again, it has been quite enlightening, and if anyone else has any input, I'd be glad to hear it.

[MichaelPatrick]

I agree completely with the advice someone gave about the $$ spent on mics being the most important.

One mic worth considering, although it'll cost twice your budget, is the Shure KSM141. They are switchable between omni and cardiod which will help you get optimal results from varied acoustics and mic locations.

[NathanShirley]

Thanks, yes I have heard someone else recommend the Shure KSM141, and I did look at them briefly. I'll check them out again. If it is that crucial that I spend some more cash, I can certainly put off the dental work even longer, as it's been a long time already!

[amfortas2006]

I think dental work is more important then microphones, so I wouldnt give more then I can - because for your money, you can find good used microphones.

[Audiop]

This thread just asks for this advice: check out Line Audio CM3!


/Peter

[Sound Chaser]

A lot of people rave about Oktava 012's (in relation to price point) but, a little known secret is their large diaphragm 102 capsules that fit on the 012 body. They sound markedly better than the small SDC's. Excellent on strings, and larger ensembles. Decent on grand--again better than the MK012's.
The Oktava's have interchangeable caps, so I would purchase a set of matched omni's and a set of matched LD 102's. About, a grand for 2 matched pairs of versatile diaphragms and 2 barrels.

[Marik]

Originally Posted by NathanShirley

And finally here is the big limitation- My budget for this is VERY limited. I would like to spend no more than about $400 on a pair of mics. !

Hello Nathan,

For classical piano I'd look into SDC and leave the LDC alone. I am afraid, only Studio Project C4 would fit your budget. They work surprisingly well for classical piano, even compare to MUCH more expensive mics. They come with two sets of capsules--omnies and cardioids, so you will cover a very wide range of miking techniques. If you buy them second hand (older model, without switches) you will still have some dough left for a low cost ribbon, which gives you a MS option, as well.

As it's been advised earlier, at this point rather take care of your dental needs. Trust me on that, mics can wait, teeth cannot...

Best, Mark Fouxman
Samar Audio & Microphone Design

[James Lehmann]

Originally Posted by NathanShirley

I would like to purchase a pair of microphones which I can use to record my own performances, piano solo, and some fairly small chamber groups, with and without piano. Not being an expert, I would like some mics that are fairly forgiving (in terms of stereo problems, comb, etc.).

one of my main questions/concerns is regarding mic self noise, and noise floor issues

My budget for this is VERY limited. I would like to spend no more than about $400 on a pair of mics.

I'm not looking for SACD or HDCD perfection, just good solid '98% of people wouldn't notice' quality.

$400 for a pair of mics that do all this?

You are asking a lot - something has to give.

As Didier's clips indicate, at $550 for the pair I honestly think the little Avensons wouldn't disappoint. Yes - there is the self-noise issue, but for me the trade off is for a wonderfully flat, neutral tone that you will struggle to find on mics costing double the price.

Listening back to recordings I've made with these always brings a smile to my face - it puts you right back in the room.

You might find a cheaper, quieter pair at $400 like the Rode NT5s, but these have a plasticky, artificial tonal quality that cannot hold a candle to what you get from the Avensons IMHO.

Based on what I've read here I might also check out the Naiant range and Sahiaman's Little Blondies if I was starting over and strapped for cash, although I have no experience with either of these personally.

[amfortas2006]

Originally Posted by James Lehmann

$400 for a pair of mics that do all this?

You are asking a lot - something has to give.

Well, with used gear its easier to find something, because for 400 you can get something that costs double when new.
I wouldnt get noisy microphones, not matter what, because there are enough microphones that are good and not noisy for the money if you search long enough and/or get lucky.

Its like buying a shirt. Either you buy a cheap new and ok shirt that you end up not wearing, because it just doesnt fit right or you buy one in an outlet-store, pay less and years after, you say to youself: "that was a good choice"!

[NathanShirley]

Thanks everyone, this is some very helpful information. And amfortas2006, I'm certainly starting to lean towards the used market, I appreciate the advice.

It would be interesting to get a few other opinions on removing self noise from recordings in post, vs. using a quite mic to begin with. Are you all routinely removing noise in post like jnorman? And is this seen (heard) as perfectly acceptable? Not that I don't believe you jnorman, you certainly have a deep understanding of all of this (and taught me a lot already!)- It's just that self noise is by far one of the most obvious problems I've encountered with cheap microphones and unprofessional recordings, so I'm still a bit paranoid about being able to remove it satisfactorily in post.

Peter, thanks for mentioning the Line Audio CM3. I've never heard of this, and a brief glance makes it look too good to be true. I'll certainly be looking into it further.

Marik, hadn't heard of the Studio Project C4. They look great, but I see the frequency response in the specs starts at 40Hz not 20. Wouldn't this be a problem for piano? Or could I adequately EQ it through a mixer or in post to compensate? Also, interesting idea about using a ribbon mic for MS, do you recommend that specifically for solo piano, or is it a nice set up for general purposes?

James, thanks for the opinion on the Avensons, and I'll be looking into the Naiant and Sahiaman mics as I haven't heard of these. So in your opinion the noise from the Avenson mics isn't much of an issue. Would you recommend noise removal in post? Also, and this is a general question for anyone- if noise removal can be easily achieved for noisy mics, then couldn't EQing be used to easily 'fix' recordings from mics that aren't perfectly flat across the range?? Or does it not work this way in practice (I've tried this a little in fairly extreme cases where it seemed to work okay, but not great)?

[NathanShirley]

Oh and Sound Chaser, thanks for the advice regarding the Oktavas. These are currently one of the forerunners for me, and I definitely like the various capsule possibilities.

What about medium diaphragm condensers? I don't know what exact measurements constitute small vs. large, but would something in the 22mm range give nice qualities of both the large and small (I've seen measurements much smaller and much larger than 22mm, and so assume it's somewhere in the middle)?

[NathanShirley]

Does anyone have any opinion/experience using a pair of Superlux S241/U3 on classical piano/chamber? They look great considering the price.

[macula]

Following the advice of a classical pianist/recording engineer, I got a pair of Studio Projects C4 mics and I've been happy with them given their price.

[NathanShirley]

Any opinions on boundary mics or PZMs? Worth looking into for my application?

[jnorman]

i personally do not like pzm's, and will not use them. there are others who use them for specific situations, like when you must hide the mics. but i never heard one that i thought sounded good - they always sound lifeless to me. though in the hands of someone who has worked with them regularly and knows how to compensate for thier drawbacks, they may be fine.

[NathanShirley]

I see, thanks again. I'll certainly cross the PZMs off the list then.

[Marik]

Originally Posted by macula

Following the advice of a classical pianist/recording engineer, I got a pair of Studio Projects C4 mics and I've been happy with them given their price.

I am glad you were happy with them.

Originally Posted by NathanShirley

Marik, hadn't heard of the Studio Project C4. They look great, but I see the frequency response in the specs starts at 40Hz not 20. Wouldn't this be a problem for piano? Or could I adequately EQ it through a mixer or in post to compensate? Also, interesting idea about using a ribbon mic for MS, do you recommend that specifically for solo piano, or is it a nice set up for general purposes?

Hi Nathan,

I would suggest not to give such attention to the specs... Really, they won't tell you anything about how the real mic will behave in a real situation. Lots of specs from some so called "classic" mics could give you 30Hz to 16KHz. Does it mean those are bad microphones?--absolutely not.
Really, everything depends as for how you measure those. In fact, I would be much more suspicious of the mic, whose specs state 20Hz-20KHz--please show me one, then we can resume .

As for MS for solo piano/generic purposes... I guess, I just did not understand the question.

Best, M

[NathanShirley]

Thanks for the opinion regarding manufacturers specs and frequency response Marik, that is good to know.

As for the MS question, you had mentioned getting a ribbon mic to give an MS option. I believe I've read that ribbon mics are good for capturing high frequencies, and I get the impression that "budget" SDCs tend not to be as good in this respect. So my question was (assuming the above to be true) were you suggesting an MS setup using SDCs for left/right and a ribbon for center, would be ideal for micing a piano (using lower end mics)? And if so, would the same setup be good for other chamber groups, like string quartet for example?

Although I should add that ease of setup is certainly one of my priorities, as I lack some of the knowledge/experience to do more complex patterns, and as I would be performing in many of these situations, I wouldn't have time to mess with involved microphone placement, let alone monitor the recording while in progress.

Thanks again.

[CGBrian.M]

Nathan,

For about $400, I think the Audio-Technica mics that Jim (jnorman) recommended are your best bet. I've heard several classical recordings that sound quite good using the AT4041 or AT4021/AT4022. The AT4021/22 are some of the quietest SDC mics you'll find in that or any price range. I personally would not buy mics that are noisy in any way. The Avenson's sound outstanding, but I've never heard a recording with them that didn't have hiss, and some of the recordings were close miced. Also keep in mind that the further you go out with them, the more gain you'll need to use, and the nosier they'll get.
You can find excellent prices for these here Audio Technica
The AT4041's are under your budget, and the AT4021/22 are just over. If you were to go with the AT4021/22, there is an online coupon that takes another $25 off any order over $399.
Another low ender that is good is the CAD M179 variable pattern mic. This mic will also come in under your budget for a pair. If you can find an older, USA made pair, that would be even better.

Brian

P.S. There seems to be a little hate lately on the remote forum for LDC's. I've used two different brands/models, and still currently own a pair of SDC's, and have felt the LDC's do just as well.