Mic'ing Acoustic Bass Live Jazz

[tourtelot]

Probably touched on in other threads but I didn't find what I was looking for. I am going to have an upright bass in a live club situation where the vocalist is the primary focus. I will put a DI on the bass's pickup, but my experience is that I don't like that sound. I'd like to mic the bass but with drum bleed, foldback (monitors) and ambiance, my usual choices seem un-workable. I could mic the speaker cabinet, but I'd like a more acoustic sound and was thinking about a lav mic, maybe a Sanken or a Countryman as a second pickup.

Does anyone have any good experience using a lav to mic a string bass. And yes, I know that it is far from ideal but it might work.

Thanks.

D.

[cyjanopan]

A lot of lav mikes are omni, I tried it and did not used it in the mix,cardioid dynamic pointed at F hole was more usable - less drum bleed. It was not ideal though so maybe there is some better way, figure of eight mic properly placed could be better. Also I think when someone will make usable convolution/simulation of upright bass cabinet, where you put DI signal and it make it sounds real - this guy will be rich ;-)

[slaphappygarry]

DPA Microphones :: Products

Regularly do this and my solution is one of the above with the string mount placed just below the bridge facing up to the fingerboard.

Because its an Omni it doesn't suffer to much from proximity and, whilst you do get spill its not as bad as the mic is litterally ON the instrument. This doesn't cut it by itself, I record a di out as well and blend it with the mic. Still not perfect but better.

Good luck

G

[KRStudio]

Get a 421 and wrap some cloth around it and place it between the body and strings aimed at the bridge. I'm sure other mics would work but I always use the 421. This keeps a consistent level to work with.

[benthebass]

Just got a DPA 4099 with guitar mount - it sits on the bridge without ruining the sound of the instrument and gives much better results than any piezo I have tried.

That said still good to have the pick up option present as these tend to feedback on stage less than any mic.

The DPA is hyper Cardioid but still difficult to get a loud sound on stage without some DI for good measure.

Fishman > EBS
+
DPA > FOH thumbsup

Schertler pickups sound good too

[spectrasound]

I use a DPA omni lav. mic. and also the pickup. In live situations, I've had really good results with creating a "wood room" verb with early reflections for the pickup channel in ProTools. I mix in more mic. bass solos where the drums aren't killing it. Good luck!thumbsup

[Don S]

Just like the 421, I've used an sm57 wrapped in a washcloth in the tailpiece. The other good spot is in the bridge wrapped in foam, but it doesn't look as nice!

[bongo]

I only do live sound a couple of times a year. One of them is the COTA festival in the Delaware Water Gap in PA. It's about 10 acoustic jazz acts a day including a couple of big bands. I always bring one of me Audi Technica ATM35s and clip it on the bridge and face it towards the body under the strings. Works for me and they are pretty inexpensive.

[Gilli C]

Originally Posted by bongo

I only do live sound a couple of times a year. One of them is the COTA festival in the Delaware Water Gap in PA. It's about 10 acoustic jazz acts a day including a couple of big bands. I always bring one of me Audi Technica ATM35s and clip it on the bridge and face it towards the body under the strings. Works for me and they are pretty inexpensive.

yep! the ATM 35'S work suprisingly well on both double bass and cello. Otherwise, DPA 4061. The bass player in the uke band I mix uses a fishman and I'm pretty happy with his sound.

Gilli

[GZsound]

I have been using an LR Baggs Para DI on acoustic basses with pickups installed for quite a while now. Getting a very nice bass sound, much better than simply hooking up a DI.

I also cut a foam cone and slit one side open so I can slide in an SM58 and use it as a "stuff" mic behind the string guard.

I recently bought an AT mic off my local Craigslist. It says "bass and tom" on it, and I believe it is from a drum mic kit. I paid $25 for it. I wrapped it in foam and covered the foam with a motorcycle inner tube piece and it makes a wonderful stuff mic. I normally leave the channel EQ flat and the mic sounds very nice.

I haven't had good luck with a 421 as a stuff mic, but an SM 57 on a "C" clamp pointed at the F hole works great too.

The ATM 35 would be my mic of choice if the bass is set up properly and no bass is required in the monitors. I have had major feedback problems when the bass player wants more bass in the monitors.

I had seven different acoustic basses on stage last Saturday and my inexpensive AT mic seemed to work the best on a low ceiling stage in a large concrete room.

[ajfarber]

The thing is, many bass players won't allow anything to be attached to their instrument. Some don't care. For those that do, a dynamic mic on a stand works fine. More boom if mice'd under the f-hole on the g-string side. You can also try micing the plucking fingers instead.

I've had good results with EV RE-20, AKG D12e, Beyer M88 and even a SM57. At Jazz @ Lincoln Center they use a FET47 and KM84 on the bass for the PA. Sometimes they'll use a Royer 122 instead of the FET47. NO DI. The bass players that play acoustic get mic'ed only. A player who uses an amp may send a line out of the amp but the only bass player I've ever seen do this at Rose Hall is Ron Carter. With someone like Ron, the amp is part of his sound, so I would rather mic the amp and bass and blend the two.

[tourtelot]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

The thing is, many bass players won't allow anything to be attached to their instrument. Some don't care. For those that do, a dynamic mic on a stand works fine. More boom if mice'd under the f-hole on the g-string side. You can also try micing the plucking fingers instead.

I've had good results with EV RE-20, AKG D12e, Beyer M88 and even a SM57. At Jazz @ Lincoln Center they use a FET47 and KM84 on the bass for the PA. Sometimes they'll use a Royer 122 instead of the FET47. NO DI. The bass players that play acoustic get mic'ed only. A player who uses an amp may send a line out of the amp but the only bass player I've ever seen do this at Rose Hall is Ron Carter. With someone like Ron, the amp is part of his sound, so I would rather mic the amp and bass and blend the two.

Seems fine for the studio but I am specifically talking about a performance recording. The bass player almost always stands next to the drum kit which make any stand mic on the instrument, in my experience, a disaster because of bleed. My intent is to minimize noise to signal to keep the drums and the stage monitors off the mic'd bass track. An omni lav 2" from the wood could be a good plan if the mic itself sounds good. It will almost certainly be a blend of the lav, the DI and I may close mic the speaker cabinet if I have a free track. May show up with a gobo as well if the performers will have it.

[memphisindie]

The Baggs suggestion is a good one, it's a high impedance discrete pre. Sounds great, I put one on a hammer dulcimer, for an artist I worked with.

When I use to work with a lot of acoustic bassists, I would use a 421 and a DI on whatever they had as a pickup, and they had small lavs and peizos, none were "great".
If I'd had one, I would have used a Sennheiser shotgun. No kidding. I use them in piano every week and they're perfect, If I had to mike a bass I'd pick it first. The good part is that they have roll off on the mic, they're condensers, and that means you can get some of the hairs across the strings if aimed properly and bring it forward a bit if desired.

[tourtelot]

Shotguns! Ooooh, I hadn't considered those. That's an interesting idea.

D.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by tourtelot

Seems fine for the studio but I am specifically talking about a performance recording. The bass player almost always stands next to the drum kit which make any stand mic on the instrument, in my experience, a disaster because of bleed.

Yes, and this is a situation where condensers may not be the best choice. You want good proximity effect without lots of high end.

[tourtelot]

Also a good point. Taken!

D.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by tourtelot

Seems fine for the studio but I am specifically talking about a performance recording. The bass player almost always stands next to the drum kit which make any stand mic on the instrument, in my experience, a disaster because of bleed. My intent is to minimize noise to signal to keep the drums and the stage monitors off the mic'd bass track. An omni lav 2" from the wood could be a good plan if the mic itself sounds good. It will almost certainly be a blend of the lav, the DI and I may close mic the speaker cabinet if I have a free track. May show up with a gobo as well if the performers will have it.

I was describing a live situation. The Rose Hall at Jazz @ Lincoln Center to be specific. Many jazz bass players don't use amps or have transducers. I have no problem micing a bass next to a drumset. Leakage is okay, it won't be a problem.

[mllrtms]

DPA recently released a bass mounted version for their 4099 series. I have not used it but am very intrigued to learn how well it works out.

Check it out

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by tourtelot

Shotguns! Ooooh, I hadn't considered those. That's an interesting idea.
D.

Try it, especially a medium or long length, even a cheap old sony will do a great job. You get low end, everything in between, dynamics, you can control bleed due to the tight polar pattern and positioning, and since they have onboard roll off (3 settings) you can control proximity if desired.

Originally Posted by ajfarber

I was describing a live situation. The Rose Hall at Jazz @ Lincoln Center to be specific. Many jazz bass players don't use amps or have transducers. I have no problem micing a bass next to a drumset. Leakage is okay, it won't be a problem.

You'll have to use a Neumann version, keep it classy.

[RobAnderson]

When the bass player is situated between the piano and drums (as they often are), I have had some luck using 414-ULS in figure-8. The idea is to try to get the drums in the null of the pattern. To me, the off-axis bleed on a condenser is usually better-sounding than that on a dynamic. Of course, you have to worry about what the rear of the mic is picking up, so this is not always an option.

I like 'growl' and 'pluck,' as opposed to 'boom,' in my bass sound, but it can be hard to come by on a crowded stage. Usually the mic ends up somewhere near the treble F-hole, though if I can get the hand plucking the string with enough isolation I'll give it a shot.

I have also had some luck suspending an SDC like a KM140 or even an MK012 (these are much lighter in weight) from the bridge with rubber bands. The drum bleed on the 140 usually sounds better than the Oktava, but the Oktava has a nice gritty sound on upright bass.

I'll almost always take the DI anyway, as well as put a mic on the amp - usually a 421 - if I have the channels. With acoustic bass on a small stage, you can never have too many options.

[opegas]

figure 8's do work really well live. And I of course would recommend a ribbon. Just be aware of monitors if you have the vocalist in front of the bass. Depending on how far away vocal monitors are or where they are pointed you might need to angle the fig 8 away.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by opegas

figure 8's do work really well live. And I of course would recommend a ribbon. Just be aware of monitors if you have the vocalist in front of the bass. Depending on how far away vocal monitors are or where they are pointed you might need to angle the fig 8 away.

There's always a Beyer 160. The back lobe goes back into the handle so it's like a hyper-cardiod ribbon. I think the 260 is the same but with reduced proximity effect.

For the studio, the AEA 44 blows them all away. At Sear sound in NYC, they have several vintage RCA44s, and some new AEA44s. The AEA is even better than the vintage RCAs.

[springer]

Soooo much depends upon your musicians. Some bassists have a puny sound and this makes for a difficult night. Some drummers know how to balance their dynamics with the band and that makes for smiles all night long.
Here is a pic of a bass (sans amp) and very loud drummer so I employed KONG (my hommade Jecklin baffle to sit alongside an RE20. Bassists was pretty strong so it came out ok.

[Storyville]

The other option - which has a few more risks than trying to get a relatively isolated sound - is to multi-task your bass mic.

Pull the lows from the DI. Use an SDC cardioid to get the more "live" part of the bass - somewhere between the neck sound and the finger sound (depending on how much your sdc picks up finger noise). At the same time, use that mic as one of the captures for your drum kit.

If your bass is center, your drums are to the right, you can throw another sdc on the other side of the kit to get the imaging correct, and throw in close mics to balance the sound.

It's risky business - I've never had the guts to give it a go - but I think it's a decent consideration.

[ajfarber]

Why do engineers use a DI on an acoustic instrument? I don't understand that. An electric bass, okay but an acoustic bass is another animal, unless you got one of those guys with action so low you can't even slip paper under the strings. Those guys need a DI or at least a mic on the amp. But the big-toned thumpers who don't play with amps should be mic'ed only. Some of those cats don't even have a pickup anyway.


Back in the 60s and early 70s, saxophone and trumpet players were experimenting with electronics and had pickups installed on their horns. This was to feed effects. But you would never record a saxophone with a pickup so why is bass okay?

[GZsound]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

Why do engineers use a DI on an acoustic instrument? I don't understand that. An electric bass, okay but an acoustic bass is another animal, unless you got one of those guys with action so low you can't even slip paper under the strings. Those guys need a DI or at least a mic on the amp. But the big-toned thumpers who don't play with amps should be mic'ed only. Some of those cats don't even have a pickup anyway.


Back in the 60s and early 70s, saxophone and trumpet players were experimenting with electronics and had pickups installed on their horns. This was to feed effects. But you would never record a saxophone with a pickup so why is bass okay?

In the studio, you can use a DI off the pickup and a mic on the bass and blend the two together to taste.

If the bass is set up properly and has a good pickup, using both sounds can create a great bass sound.

My wife has two basses, one an old acoustic with Fishman pickup mounted. We had the bridge relieved and the pickup paddles installed under the bridge legs. Run through an LR Bags Para DI, that bass sounds great. I also set up an AT 4047 a foot in front of the bass and record that track too. Blend to taste for a big nice round bass sound.

She also has an Eminence bass, which is a cut down acoustic with a Realist pickup mounted. It makes no body sound on it's own so we have to use the Para DI off the pickup. It actually is a joy to record. No bleed in the room, smooth and natural sounding. I go from the bass to the LR Baggs to a DBX compressor and the bass sounds great.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by GZsound

In the studio, you can use a DI off the pickup and a mic on the bass and blend the two together to taste.

Blend to taste for a big nice round bass sound.

Okay, my taste would be no DI at all.

If the bass sounds big, nice and round, a mic alone will do.

[RobAnderson]

Why do engineers use a DI on an acoustic instrument? I don't understand that. An electric bass, okay but an acoustic bass is another animal, unless you got one of those guys with action so low you can't even slip paper under the strings. Those guys need a DI or at least a mic on the amp. But the big-toned thumpers who don't play with amps should be mic'ed only. Some of those cats don't even have a pickup anyway.

Personally I hate the sound of a DI on acoustic bass, but on a loud stage it can sometimes be your only option to get enough bass in the mix. As far as pickups go, the Realist one sounds almost good enough to be useable.

Unfortunately in our amplified times, there are many drummers who no longer control their dynamics and my bass mic as often as not simply becomes another drum mic. Wash from stage monitors and amps can also color the sound in such a way that, to my ear, the mic alone is nearly useless.

It really depends on the situation. I'd rather use the mic, but am often glad I took the DI.

Just curious - has anyone here used a 441 on bass? I'd be curious to know how it worked out.

[James Lehmann]

What about an SM7b? I'm liking the bass response of this beast and it sports quite good rejection, but I've not tried it on acoustic yet. Anyone?

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by James Lehmann

What about an SM7b? I'm liking the bass response of this beast and it sports quite good rejection, but I've not tried it on acoustic yet. Anyone?

I was reading through this thread and wondered why no one brought up the SM7b. It works great on acoustic bass or in front of a cab. It's naturally smooth and takes EQ beautifully. And, as you say, bleed control is very good.