Outdoor Jazz Festival mic'ing help needed

[boojum]

I have been offered the chance to record a three day jazz festival in Portland this summer. I can do 8 channels with my 788T. If SD has its magic working I could be able to C-link my two 722's for a total of twelve channels. My mics are:

DPA 4006 TL (x2)
DPA 4061 (x3)
Schoeps CMC64 (x4)
Schoeps CMC68
Peluso CEMC6 (x2)
Shure DMK57-52 (3 SM57 Microphones, One Beta 52A )
Mackie 1402 VLZ-3


I do not know if I will be able to get a SBD tap but surmise I will be able to. I would like to keep this as simple as possible. That would reduce the opportunity for error.

I have attached two photos of last years festival. I guess it is kind of a standard outdoor summer jazz festival layout. The bandstand is at the bottom of a long sloping hill. The bandstand faces east, the beautiful Columbia river flows behind it two blocks away.

What would be a good setup for this sort of a situation? I have some ideas, but some of my ideas are bad so help me out here.

Cheers

[ajfarber]

Can I assume that there will be many different size groups playing different styles of music? These days there are very few actual jazz acts at so called "jazz festivals".

Also, will there be a "house" drum set or will each band provide their own? Will there be a real piano or different keyboards?

[boojum]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

Can I assume that there will be many different size groups playing different styles of music? These days there are very few actual jazz acts at so called "jazz festivals".

Also, will there be a "house" drum set or will each band provide their own? Will there be a real piano or different keyboards?

Andy, you know the drill! Various sized groups, and yes, not all of them are what we call jazz. That "straight ahead" stuff has fallen through the cracks for the most part. There is some around and PDX is a good town for jazz.

The answer to your questions is "yes." There is a baby grand on stage but some folks bring their own 'lectric version. Drums, too: house set and those who bring their own.

It is a free festival that's been around for almost 30 years. Started small and just like Topsy, it grew. The audience is well-mannered and happy. They picnic, cook some BBQ, and just enjoy the mellowness of this gig.

What else can I tell you to help??

[ajfarber]

I guess this is Steve's territory, right?

[boojum]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

I guess this is Steve's territory, right?

I welcome help and advice from you folks whenever I can get it. And, I follow it most of the time.

[bishopthomas]

12 channels is kind of light for a festival recording. I really wouldn't want to do it with any less than 24, 48 would be preferable. But since you're stuck at 12 you're going to have to do some submixing. Take feeds off the FOH console or if there's a monitor position you might be able to build some mixes off spare mixes (but don't count on enough isolation to trust the mixes you create). It will probably be a 48 channel console set up festival style, so get with the PA company before hand to figure out how you're going to patch and what kind of feeds to be looking for. You obviously won't need every channel as there will be lots of duplication (bass SR/bass SL, multiple guitar and keyboard lines, etc) so figure out how to get those groups from FOH.

You have some great microphones there, but I'm not sure how best to utilize them. Obviously you're going to want some audience mics. You should be taking splits on the "money channels" and therefore using the PA company's mics, but see if they'd be willing to use some of yours instead. Chances are they have a slew of 57's and if you asked to swap them out with Schoeps and DPA's they won't have any problem with that.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

<snip>

You have some great microphones there, but I'm not sure how best to utilize them. Obviously you're going to want some audience mics. You should be taking splits on the "money channels" and therefore using the PA company's mics, but see if they'd be willing to use some of yours instead. Chances are they have a slew of 57's and if you asked to swap them out with Schoeps and DPA's they won't have any problem with that.

I had not thought about swapping out their mics. What I had in mind was taking a SBD feed (FOH) and putting up some mics in a standard array, say ORTF, plus some flankers and spots. If I ran MS that would free one CMC64 for spot or section use. But I look at this with an acoustic classical slant and this festival ain't that. ;o)

I am also a little nervous about mics disappearing. I do not need any more 57's, especially when paying for them with Schoeps. I do not know that this would happen, and do not want to. I have to be very cautious. I suppose insurance is a must for this gig. I have some in place on my gear and have to check on that.

Problems, problems, problems. But, "If this were easy the customer would do it himself." LOL

[7rojo7]

Get in contact with the service as soon as you can and ask for copies of their tech riders. tell them you want to do this in the most transparent way possible and ask what their setup will be (will they have a monitor console or run monitors from FOH etc...) Discuss as much as you can and agree on it way beforehand, don't just show up and say where can I plug in, do you have an extra cable? Most services will be happy to work with you if they know what will be expected from both parts.
With 12 channels you're probably going to have to go with direct and group outs, better to take them prefader pre.eq if you can, of course with groups you get whatever is mixed into them and you have to go along with the FOH choices, you can work this out beforehand. There's too much to do when you're mounting a stage to have surprises thrown at you at the last moment.

[boojum]

The station manager of the local community FM outlet here in town ran the job for live broadcast last year and many years before and is putting me in touch with the stage manager, his buddy. He was station manager at the PDX jazz station which broadcast the festival. So I would be talking to him and the stage manager ASAP.

The local live broadcast has been dropped as the PDX station was absorbed by the large PBS/NPR outlet in Portland/PDX. The festival will have a setup subbed out to a local PA/concert/festival house to handle the sound on site. I will be there to get a feed from them and whatever else I can. That is how it plays out.

I would really like to come away with a great pull here. It is a huge learning experience and a chance to get a great pull. It looks like it will work. All I need do is get those mics up in the right places and into my array of SD recorders. SD, please have the C-link worked out by then.

I may also be able to get a DPA 5100 on loan on evaluation for this gig. That might be a good solution, too. Here is the link on that puppy: DPA Microphones :: Products

With the 5100 and two channels from the SBD I would still have five channels left. If the C-link is not done I can run one 722 synched with the software the way it now is for a total of 10 channels. Or, three after the 5100 and SBD.

Anyone using the 5100?? DPA says folks are loving it. And they may be. I'd like to find out. Does the 5100 seem an easy way to get three front channels in a quasi Decca Tree and two back channels of ambient/audience sound? Seems that way to me. The 5100 can be run that way. It seems to make sense to me, but, I am still in grade school. Everything makes sense at that time. LOL

[7rojo7]

I heard Prince records with a stereo mic in front of the FOH. I used to 'sanctioned' boots with a stereo mic and a board feed (4tk cassette) and used a pair of delays to delay the board feed for mixing after, flip the board feed out of phase and adjust the delay untill it sounds weakest and shows weakest on a VU meter, then reflip it, almost never used it though except when the vox and drums would get overwhelmed by the bass and gtrs (different music, big club setting). It's much easier nowadays, ping.
I'd get the service number and see what they're up to and make friends
If the live mixes are good you're recording should be OK, from that far (FOH) I would use a coincident xy with an omni to get the bass, all on the same bar (an ORTF stereo bar with a center bolt turned sideways and vertically will work) then take direct feeds

[bishopthomas]

It seems like you're maybe a little too worried about mic selection and not so much about the logistics of how to mixdown (probably) 48 channels into 12. CALL THE SOUND CO! Step away from your computer and pick up the phone, now. 90% of the logistics will be taken care of by that phone call, so why waste time asking us questions?

[boojum]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

It seems like you're maybe a little too worried about mic selection and not so much about the logistics of how to mixdown (probably) 48 channels into 12. CALL THE SOUND CO! Step away from your computer and pick up the phone, now. 90% of the logistics will be taken care of by that phone call, so why waste time asking us questions?

BT - OK, I will get their number and give them a call. You are right. That's why I ask these questions here. Because I do not know what to do, yet.

I will start with getting in touch with the station manager > stage manager > live sound co.


Thanks again.

[Roland]

I would respectfully suggest that you re probably going the wrong way about it. Even if the bands are not too large you really need some sort of dedicated multitrack system with at least 24 tracks possibly more.

I would be taking a split feed from the stage and in addition have several audience reaction mics up. Remeber if this is an outdoor gig you will need to consider wind noise on the ambient mics.

A simple split to either a console or a series of pre's then into either a dedicated multitrack HD24, X48, or a computer system, Pro Tools, Sequioa, Pyramix, etc, etc. If would be very wise to make sure you have a way to monitor and solo signals so that you can check out problems/line faults etc. The Split side should be relatively easy if the sound company is any good they will have this (though it may only be a passive split), active splits are best, but that will depend on your budget.

Regards


Roland

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by Roland

I would respectfully suggest that you re probably going the wrong way about it. Even if the bands are not too large you really need some sort of dedicated multitrack system with at least 24 tracks possibly more.

I agree, but it looks like our friend is going to do this FOH mix + ambient mics style. Not the best, but maybe (hopefully) the client will be happy with what he captures. At the same time, the PA company (or someone from a band with a 2 track recorder) could probably do just as well.

[boojum]

^^^^^ Yes, the pull will be two or four feeds from the board and the rest from ambient mics. Not the best, for sure, but I will make do with it. It will be used on the local community radio for rebroadcast.

I plan a pair of 4061's way up above the center stage, say 4 - 5 meters. Maybe an ORTF Schoeps CMC64 and area mics for what I can grab of the rest. That is six or eight channels which leaves me four or six for ambient mics by area on the stage. What I am hoping to wind up with is a good ambient recording.

The Petrus/Gaston efforts have show that the 406n's can give good band results. I am hoping that the 4061 pair, sweetened by other mics on the stage and two channels from the PA soundboard will give me what I want. I know this will not be a super good close mic'ed studio album. I just want to make the best possbile ambient mix that I can.

If i could I would go out and rent and additional 5 788T's and run them as Thomas has recently for his PBS gig. I know there are pro's and cons to ambient vs spot. And there is no "one size fits all."

Perhaps it would have been better to ask, "Can I run two channels from the PA soundboard and 10 channels from spot and ambient with the aim of a good sounding ambient pull and does it make any sense?" I am very green in this. I started about three years ago. And at 70 I do not have a lot of years left to get this game. So I am doing all I can to catch up with you guys and put as much good stuff onto the HD as I can. That is one of the reasons why this board is central to my learning. It is the densest and most cordial collection of pros I have found. If it pleases you I will write "Not Worthy" in Latin one hundred times on the blackboard.

You guys are my heroes, even the ones I do not always agree with. Whether I agree with you or not I do respect the immense amount of skill, practice and experience you have gathered.


Cheers

[Roland]

Judging by the size of the field in the pics you posted, as long as the FOH engineer is any good you shouldn't need more than 2 or 4 ambient feeds. Bearing in mind it's the band sound you will want in the main. Most of the sound will need to be the board feed, however you are at the mercy of your PA engineer.

Regards


Roland

[boojum]

Roland, thanks. I would dream to get the most part from the omni 4061's. However, with a good feed from the board and good sound from the omni's I can mix for the best. The folks who ran sound last year, the PA house, had a great sound and setup. They have a good rep in Portland and the engineer is a woman, who knows her stuff.

The downside to all of this is that I like the pure and simple setup with as little as possible from the board. And like you and all the other GS'ers, I should have been born rich instead of good looking. ROTFLMAO

Thanks to all of you folks for pointing me in the right direction on the basis of what I have to work with, intellectually and gear-wise.