What do you think, ortf or spaced?

[Doozer]

I have opportunity to record a 4 piece blue grass band, my experience is with larger choirs, bands and so on. With larger groups my main stereo is placed in the ortf configuration.

With a small group I’m concerned that every turn of the head will be noticeable and I’m considering just spacing the mics.

I’ll be using a pair of schoeps mk21s and spot the vocalists with TLM 103s.

What do you think, ortf or spaced?

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Doozer

I have opportunity to record a 4 piece blue grass band, my experience is with larger choirs, bands and so on. With larger groups my main stereo is placed in the ortf configuration.

With a small group I’m concerned that every turn of the head will be noticeable and I’m considering just spacing the mics.

I’ll be using a pair of schoeps mk21s and spot the vocalists with TLM 103s.

What do you think, ortf or spaced?

You cannot do ORTF at all as the MK21s are hypo-cardioid and not cardioid mics.

A Jecklin Disk arrangement may work quite well, even though they are not omnis ???

[Doozer]

Originally Posted by John Willett

You cannot do ORTF at all as the MK21s are hypo-cardioid and not cardioid mics.

A Jecklin Disk arrangement may work quite well, even though they are not omnis ???

Maybe its not ortf but i do use a near-coincident configuration. For the wide cardioid pair (mk21) I have 9 7/8" between capsules at a 110 degree angle. I like the results.

[Mark A. Jay]

Hmmm... well, you can't (truly) do an ORTF because they are hyper-cardioid mic elements...but you could try it and see if you like the results (you may not though...).

Do you have additional mics and channels available? Why not set up two configurations of your choosing, at approximately the same location and take them simultaneously into the recorder? At least that way you could experiemnt (during sound check) and play back to see what you prefer.

I often set up my KU-100 binaural mannequin microphone along with an ORTF pair relatively close to it. I always feel better having an ORTF (or sometimes XY pair) as an alternate version - some customers may prefer one type over the other, so having both helps.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Doozer

Maybe its not ortf but i do use a near-coincident configuration. For the wide cardioid pair (mk21) I have 9 7/8" between capsules at a 110 degree angle. I like the results.

That's great, no problem, just that it's not ORTF.

Originally Posted by Binaural_Mark

Hmmm... well, you can't (truly) do an ORTF because they are hyper-cardioid mic elements...but you could try it and see if you like the results (you may not though...).

The 21s are Hypo-cardioid - *not* - Hyper-cardioid (IE: wide-cardioid).

[Mark A. Jay]

Originally Posted by John Willett

That's great, no problem, just that it's not ORTF.

The 21s are Hypo-cardioid - *not* - Hyper-cardioid (IE: wide-cardioid).

This is what I get for jumping on the forum before having any caffeiene whatsoever. I should have never quit smoking either...at least I used to be awake in the morning.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Binaural_Mark

This is what I get for jumping on the forum before having any caffeiene whatsoever. .

[John Brook]

My experience with wide spacing is a nice hole in the middle. The wide cardioids splayed like ORTF does very nicely with smaller ensembles, IMHO. It's worth a try. Can you try it during a rehearsal?

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by John Brook

My experience with wide spacing is a nice hole in the middle. The wide cardioids splayed like ORTF does very nicely with smaller ensembles, IMHO. It's worth a try. Can you try it during a rehearsal?

I agree, and especially find spaced pairs bounce too much when members of a small ensemble turn their instrument or head when singing. For this reason alone coincident or near coincident is almost required, IMO. A Blumlein pattern can be wonderful all by itself, and complimented by outriggers.

[boojum]

Follow this link: http://www.rycote.com/media/pdfs/tec...nic%20Zoom.pdf


It has charts and discussion on mic angles and distances and results. Williams has done a lot of testing and used others research on this subject. He covers it quite well. He also has a book or two out on the subject.

You must decide which array is appropriate for any given situation but this article will give you the foundation to make decisions more easily.

Cheers

[Roland]

A point I would raise, rather than getting bogged down on one or the other stereo techniques would be if this is the best way to record a blue grass outfit?

Where a stereo pair might be worth having I would strongly recommend that you spot all the instruments and if at all possible, multitrack them. Spotting just the vocalists with vocal bleed and everything else over a stereo pair may sound disjointed.

Regards


Roland

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by Roland

A point I would raise, rather than getting bogged down on one or the other stereo techniques would be if this is the best way to record a blue grass outfit?

Where a stereo pair might be worth having I would strongly recommend that you spot all the instruments and if at all possible, multitrack them. Spotting just the vocalists with vocal bleed and everything else over a stereo pair may sound disjointed.

Regards


Roland

Absolutely right. Great point! I've got bad recordings to prove it! I do jazz the way you describe and bluegrass arrangements wouldn't be too different.

[7rojo7]

I agree with Roland, I would spot everything, What are the instruments? How will they be seated? Is it a performance or a live studio recording? Do you have multitrack capabilities? If not you'll have to do a 'sound check' and have them agree on the mix.
You said you haven't done this before.
Will there be a house system or is it an acoustic performance? etc...
give us some more info and we'll give you some more answers.

[boojum]

To spot or not to spot, that is the question. Traditional BG recording relies on a single pair with the performers arrayed around the pair in a semi-circle or grouped in a short line before the mics. Each individual performer will come forward to the mics for his/her solo and then return to their original position. An omni is sometimes between the stereo array.

More recent BG has had the spot mics added. The traditionalists disapprove. If you have the mics I would go with the stereo pair (MS, ORTF, Blumlein or other spaced array) and also spot the individual players. You can always ignore what you don't need in the mix which is far better than wishing for what you don't have. So I say, go with the belt and suspenders; do both.

I have a gig coming up where I will be doing the combo, "belt and suspenders", myself.

Cheers