Grand piano miking with Sennheiser MHK8040 outdoor

[clementpony]

Hi,

i checked previous posts about miking a grand piano but i'm quite lost and an absolute beginner in that field.
couldn't find the right solution for my problems

i'll have to mike a Yamaha C5 in outdoor conditions. music style is classical.
its in a fair so it will be really noisy around. i guess i have to mic it really close.
its not for recording, it just to amp it through the PA (JBL line Array system)
i'm really afraid of the wind too....
my mic set up is 2 Sennheiser MKH 8040. i'm lost with all these stereo couples because it seems that that kind of mic is used for long distance miking. what would be the placement? is there an ideal stereo couple for this configuration?

i'll have a bit of time to experiment i hope, so first of all, i'll place the mics quite close and play around with the positions...

Let me know your thoughts!!

thx

[John Willett]

The 8040 should be good for this.

If it's outdoors you may need to use the supplied foam windshields.

But I think experimentation is your best bet to get the right sound - sorry, there is no hard and fast rule on this.

[fifthcircle]

The 8040 is a fine mic for this- you'll definitely want to use windscreens though.

The stock screens are decent, but the mics are very sensitive to wind. You may find that you need something a bit more. Solutions I use here for live performance include the stock screens, 2 screens over each other (stock and something like a U87 foam screen), or a big single screen (like the one made by Shue for the SM-81. A81WS is the model, FWIW)

--Ben

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

The 8040 is a fine mic for this- you'll definitely want to use windscreens though.

The stock screens are decent, but the mics are very sensitive to wind. You may find that you need something a bit more. Solutions I use here for live performance include the stock screens, 2 screens over each other (stock and something like a U87 foam screen), or a big single screen (like the one made by Shure for the SM-81. A81WS is the model, FWIW)

A Rycote mini Windjammer over the stanard foam windshield may help in windy conditions - effective and not too expensive.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by John Willett

A Rycote mini Windjammer over the stanard foam windshield may help in windy conditions - effective and not too expensive.

My only issue with the Rycote windjammers and similar soft windscreens is aesthetic- it has nothing to do with how well they work (they are excellent). On most of the stages where I work, the clients are fine with a big, neat looking hunk of foam, but they are not fine with a big furry thing on stage.

Rycote makes some pretty good products, though...

I realized I forgot to give a suggestion on how to use the mics- first thing I'd try would be a simple ORTF pattern in the crook of the piano a couple feet out. If it is classical, you don't want to be in too close, but at the same time you have gain before feedback issues to deal with.

When amplifying classical piano, I usually have omnis hung (for other groups in a festival situation) and I'll spot the piano with a second set of omnis or subcards on a long stereo bar. It won't get real loud, but the quality of sound is good. Most of the audiences I work with understand to keep quiet enough to hear an acoustic show.

--Ben

[hbphotoav]

Ditto the double windscreen thing. I just did a groundbreaking ceremony outdoors with a AT mini cardioid podium gooseneck (an appearance thing for the client) which required a lavaliere-style 3/4" foam ball on the mic, covered with a "standard" foam sock for a 3/4" (20mm or so) pencil mic. No wind noise (on a gusty mid-morning) and none of the "usual" breath pops when the folks leaned in on the mic. Quickest, cheapest solution would be to use the supplied 8040 foam screens (which are already of a double-baffle type) with a SM58 foamie (available at GC or Sam Ash) pulled over that. Ugly, but effective.

Placement in the grand is to taste, but I'd start with one over the point where the harp intersects the soundboard between the highest strings and the middle section, with the second over the section where the strings cross in the bass region. Short stick, of course.

But, then, I'd also recommend using a couple of DPA 4061s gafftaped to the lid in similar positions, with the lid closed. Omnis under the closed lid = no wind noise, and great "mic'd up grand" sound through the PA with really decent gain-before-feedback..

[fifthcircle]

If the music is classical as the OP first mentioned, I think you'll find that the pianist will insist on the lid being on full stick. As a performer, that is the sound that you are used to hearing. Means it is a bit tougher to deal with from a wind perspective, but not impossible.

Also, if it is classical, I would strongly suggest making sure the mics aren't too close. Capture the instrument as a whole- not a manufactured sound like you would with a more jazz or pop setup.

--Ben

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

If the music is classical as the OP first mentioned, I think you'll find that the pianist will insist on the lid being on full stick. As a performer, that is the sound that you are used to hearing. Means it is a bit tougher to deal with from a wind perspective, but not impossible.

Also, if it is classical, I would strongly suggest making sure the mics aren't too close. Capture the instrument as a whole- not a manufactured sound like you would with a more jazz or pop setup.

--Ben

Noble goals... but even classical players recognize the difference between the concert hall and a wind-swept outdoor stage. The lid reflects the sound mainly "out" to the house... and if that lid becomes a giant sail, funneling noise past the mics... a short stick may be unavoidable. Strings players who eschew mics of any nature usually are glad to clip on 4060s or 4099s if it means the sound will actually be heard 50 feet from the lip of the stage.

OP also stated the venue is not a classical amphitheater, but "a fair" where it will be "really noisy around." The choice may well come down to being heard at all, or being lost in the environment. The 8040s are a great choice... positioning them at a "usual" distance for a "concert" sound or recording... that may well amplify way too much windy environment and not nearly enough classical music. Double wind screens will be necessary, if you want anything below 200Hz left un-cut. The SM81 screen is designed for a mic that's 8" long. May be difficult to get it to stay on the 3" 8040 in a shock mount...

My $.02. I'm married to a classical pianist, BTW. She concurs. YMMV. But, let us know how it all works out.

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

The SM81 screen is designed for a mic that's 8" long. May be difficult to get it to stay on the 3" 8040 in a shock mount...

When I use this screen on the mic, it takes a bit of "doing" to make it work well... I usually place the mic in an A53 donut mount or a butterfly clip mount (ie AT8410a) with the clip on the XLR connector and the mic sticking out. If the screen isn't staying on, a very small piece of gaffers tape will keep it in place without issue.

--Ben

[lucey]

AMT M40 I believe ... good live piano mic. Half cardioid plate mount.

[clementpony]

thanks a lot for all these details!

about the monitoring, my friend advises me to put a couple of SM58 that i'll send only in the monitors. the sound for the pianist will not be the best but a least i'll avoid all feedback problems. and the audience keep the fine sound of the 8040!

concerning the audience, it's at the Shanghai 2010 expo, i'm not sure if you've been in China but chinese people tend to be a bit loud when they talk

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by clementpony

thanks a lot for all these details!

about the monitoring, my friend advises me to put a couple of SM58 that i'll send only in the monitors. the sound for the pianist will not be the best but a least i'll avoid all feedback problems. and the audience keep the fine sound of the 8040!

Even better... get your pianist on a nice set of IEMs (wired, or wireless) and feed him the 8040 mix with no fear of feedback whatsoever... a pair of good buds can be had for the price of a pair of 58s... mix in a bit of crowd noise and you're golden. Never did much like the sound of a concert grand through a wedge anyway...