Audio monitoring setup on video set

[Mikycoud]

Hi,
I've got a video shoot coming up that's gonna require us handling audio in a different way that we're used to. Since I've never done that before, I'm wondering how to setup the equipment.
The plan is to have two wired lavs on the actors+a boom operator with a Senn 416, aimed at the actors as well, as a backup track. The 3 mics are hooked up to a SD302 mixer (operated by someone) and then routed to the camera line ins and to (most likely) a SD702.
First question:What's the best way to give the boom operator a feed from his mic (the 416 on the boom). Do we buy a separate mixer/preamp for him, so he can monitor his placement and levels? But then, what's next? A line signal to the 302? This doesn't seem logical, as we wouldn't make use of the 302 preamps and limiter, but the lesser mixer's preamps' ones.
Other possiblity: we split the 416 signal and parallel feed both the mixer and the preamp? I'm sure that's not the proper way of doing it...

What do you pros do? What's the 'official' way of routing a signal from a boom, to the boom operator, to the sound mixer?
Thanx for any advice.

[Petrus]

A separate mic-pre with monitoring, like SD MM-1 for the boom operator. There will be one redundant mic-pre in this case in SD302, but so what? Most likely all mic-pres in SD302 would be unused, as the radio reciever signals should be also fed at line level to SD302. What would be the point of first using transmitter mic-pre, then lowering the signal back to mic level at the raciever only to re-pre-amply it???? Line level all the way, the professional way.

[Mikycoud]

Hyvää Huomenta Petrus and thanx for your answer,
We'll be using no transmiter, we're going 'unbilical'. All the mics will be wired to the 302.
Also, after taking a look at the MM-1, and I agree it could be a solution, but I have to admit I don't understand what the benefit would be in using another preamp in the chain. The MM-1 has no meter, so it would make it hard to adjust the levels going into the 302.
How do you MM-1 owners adjust your input level without meters and hard stepped gain control?
Also, I'm not that comfortable with the idea of giving my boom op some gain control over the signal. I just want to give him monitoring.

Oh, by the way, whilst looking for answers, I came across a couple of devices that would seem to be a perfect solution for my issue, and sure would like some opinion on them:
Rolls Corporation - Real Sound - Products PM55
Whirlwind / MD-1
These little inline headphone amps seem to be perfect for tapping the mic signal without distorting it (they call it something like loopthrough, or direct I/O).
What do you think?
The only trouble is I can't seem to find any of them available anywhere but the USA. Does anyone know of a place where to get them, or any similar device (it's obviously gotta be battery operated)?
Thanx.

[Matti]

Well you could send the boom operator the phones out from the 302 set to send only his / her mic and listen to the SD702 for the program monitoring.
This way you would have one way communication to the boom op. trough the slate mic.
The likely routing would be track 1 for boom and track 2 for the lav. mix anyways with this kind of 2 track setup.

Matti

[Mikycoud]

Hi,
Thanx for the suggestion.
I still think using a device like the MM-1 or preferably one of the devices mentionned in my previous post would be more straightforward and offer more flexibility.
Any experience with the MM-1 for boom ops? (How do you monitor your input levels?)
Any opinion on the inline Headphone Amps? (Does it distort the signal at all? Lack of isolation transformer...)
Thanx

[Matti]

It is always good to have communication with the boom op without disturbing the set

Matti

[Mikycoud]

Hi Matti,
We use Motorola sets for comm between the team members, this way, everybody can communicate with everybody ) That's one of the reasons why the devices listed further up appeal to me, as they all have a line in option (which we would hook up our Motorolas to) and let you monitor a mix from this and the mic feed as well.
The only thing I seem to be missing is how does one know what output level one is getting on the MM-1. (ie, if I wanna send a -18db signal to the 302, how do I do I make sure that's what I'm sending, since there's no meter?)

[Matti]

MM-1 has a peak indicator, check the manual for its treshold

Matti

[Petrus]

My mistake about lavaliers, sorry.

MM-1 is a mic pre-amp, and it sends line level signal to your 302, I see no problem in that, those mic-pres are likely to be just as good as SD302 mic-pres. It will be in any case more robust than a long mic cable from the boom.

Boom operator sets the levels with test, no need for him to ride gain after that, mixer operator sets the final levels with SD302.

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by Mikycoud

The 3 mics are hooked up to a SD302 mixer (operated by someone) and then routed to the camera line ins and to (most likely) a SD702.

That "someone" is the location sound mixer and as the "department head" of the sound department, it is generally his call. If that someone is you or someone not experienced, then I can of course see why an open discussion of what's best is warranted.

For loosely scripted or OTF work, I generally do a boom / lav split on the stereo output of my mixer. (or stuff I'm simply not paid to memorize lines and sit in on rehearsals that include camera and sound rehearsal) In that case, you would simply send your boom op the channel that has his boom mic on it, or he would lift one earpad off his ear to give him both a monitoring feed and also to have situational awareness (like the camera people yelling at him for doing something wrong). I often find myself booming my own stuff or will sometimes swap positions with my boom op if it is a particularly challenging setup or I just want to change it up a bit. When I'm operating, I wouldn't mind having my own gain control, but when I'm mixing, I'd rather have control, as is natural with the inherently control centric nature of our jobs. When I'm doing both, I'm neither booming or mixing as well as I could be if I was just doing one or the other. From a boom operator's perspective, when one finds that they are overmodulating, the first reaction should be to physically lift the boom up off of the sound sound source rather rapidly. This will always be faster than shifting weight to one hand, and then reaching with the other to adjust gain.

Generally speaking, you would use a more advanced mixer than the 302 to accomplish full routing with coms and private line. On a budget, most people grab your ubiquitous Mackie or Yamaha (digital) boards to accomplish this. The purpose built panel mixers for location sound are of course better suited, but tend to cost a lot of money.

[Mikycoud]

Originally Posted by Petrus

MM-1 is a mic pre-amp, and it sends line level signal to your 302, I see no problem in that...
...Boom operator sets the levels with test, no need for him to ride gain after that, mixer operator sets the final levels with SD302.

That's what I have trouble grasping: Normally, the signal from the 416 (and lavs) is hooked directly to the 302, which is itself hooked up to the cam's XLRs (Line +4dbu). We send tone to the cam from the 302 so that 0Dbu on the 302 equals -18DBfs on the cam. We then make sure our 416 signal never goes too hot on the 302 (max +4/+6Dbu on 302, -12DBfs on Cam). That leaves us a bit of headroom for strong peaks.
But with the MM-1 in the chain, how do I know what level I'm feeding the 302?

[Petrus]

MM-1 puts out line level signal, flip the input switch on sd302 to line position. Boom operator sets the correct level at his end and leaves it alone, mixer sets levels just as usual with the mixer, only that boom does not go through mixer mic-preamps, no other difference.

[Mikycoud]

Yeah, but given that the MM-1 does not have any meter, how does the boom op know what levels he is getting? How does he know how hot the signal is? Ideally, I'd like the signal to stay between -18dbu and -12dbu with occasional peaks, so the MM-1 preamps can do their job and send a nice line signal to the 302, but how can the boom op know where to set his levels if he hasn't got any meter?
I agree the boom op should not try to ride the levels, but he has to be able to set them properly in a first place.
Am I missing something here?

[Sound Chaser]

There are several units specifically made for the purpose you seek, similar to a transformer balanced split in a snake. (Beachtech is one manufacturer) The mic cable plugs into the boom-op's preamp which drives his headset. The split signal goes to the 302.

You said that you are using a 416 for backup. Most likely it will be the other way around. The mic sounds better than the lavs and typically capture 70% of the dialogue. Also any noise interference with the lavs (and there is plenty) will knock out any signals mixed along with it. Therefore, I always isolate the mic on one track and place the remaining lavs together on the other track.

[Petrus]

Originally Posted by Mikycoud

Yeah, but given that the MM-1 does not have any meter, how does the boom op know what levels he is getting? How does he know how hot the signal is? Ideally, I'd like the signal to stay between -18dbu and -12dbu with occasional peaks, so the MM-1 preamps can do their job and send a nice line signal to the 302, but how can the boom op know where to set his levels if he hasn't got any meter?
I agree the boom op should not try to ride the levels, but he has to be able to set them properly in a first place.
Am I missing something here?

Yes and no; the boom operator can use the limiter warning light as a guide. Run a test and set the level on the MM-1 so that the limiter just engages at peaks, or turn the gain down 4 or 8 dB. After that just forget the whole unit and set all levels with SD302. MM-1 has 120 dB dynamic range, having the level a few dB below the theoretical ideal is nothing to worry about.

-18 to -12 dBu? That would loose over 30 dB of good dynamic range, 5 to 6 bits in bit depth right there. You must mean -18 to -12 dBFS?

[Matti]

What did I say in my posts? (leaves the scene )

Matti

[tourtelot]

OMG! Hire a real soundman!

D.

[Mikycoud]

@Petrus: Thanx. Ok, I see. So I have to have the limiter switched on then and use it as a 'guide'. Otherwise, there's no way to tell where the levels 'really' are, since that peak indicator is the only reference. Thanx for your help Petrus, I think I'm going the 'inline headphone preamp' (ala Shure FP22, or Whirlwind MD-1) way, since that's one less gain adjustement to worry about. Kiitos. (Yes, I meant -12dbFs)
@Matti: Sorry Matti, I missed that post. Thanx for taking the time to try and help a rookie.
@tourtelot: I probably should! Then again, I could acknowledge my weaknesses and try and learn on a pro forum with helpful people... I guess it's a matter of personal philosophy (is there a philosophy sub-section on these fora? ) Thanx anyway.

Good day to all. I really apreciated you all taking the time to answer my questions.

[tourtelot]

Just wanted to say I was sorry for my little outburst. I'll try and explain my frustration.

I am an old, crotchety, and experienced location sound guy; been doing it a long time. I have come to believe that someone who wants to learn the ropes can't be "talked" through the process. You can't go to school for it and you can't read a book about it. My opinion is that the only way to learn how to really do the job, and keep from making bad decisions on the job (which could be career ending) is to apprentice with an experienced soundman.

Now here's the rub on that. That system of education no longer exists. A number of things account for that; tight money, "audio schools" that claim to circumvent the need, forums like this where qualified people are willing to answer all questions with grace (except for me sometimes<g>) and inexpensive gear that will let anyone get started.

But in my view, it's sort of like saying, "I am going to be a stone sculptor." Then deciding to take on a commission from the Grand Duke, going out and buying a hammer and chissels from Acme Stonecutters Supply, and then asking a renoun sculptor 3000 miles away on the internet how to carve a statue of David. It just doesn't work.

I sincerely wish you good luck on you project, and again, I apologize for my snarky reaction to this thread. You will most certainly learn while you earn doing it this way, but the beware of the real world problems that will bite you that aren't in the on-line manuals and never discussed in a thread such as this because we don't even think about those problem at this stage in our careers; only the 1000 others that we will face today.

Regards,

D.

[jwh1192]

i agree with douglas another cranky soundman here yet, i learned by being thrown into the deep end one of those camera operator friends that hates all the other sound guys, knew i was a musician and a music mixer says "I will teach you on the way" having balls the size of jupiter at the time i said yes, and i am still doing it 22 years later in los angeles .. where everyone is a sound guy (whether they really are or not) ...

something i have not seen anyone say yet ... you asked "how does the boom op know where to set levels" or something to that affect ...

"Use Your Ears" ... learn what distortion sounds like and where the edge of that distortion happens ... this gives you the ability to manage your headroom .... practice practice practice ... that is from the musician in me .. rent (if you do not own) a mixer / 416 / a professional wireless lav / handmic rig / 3 hardwire lavs and a phase reverse / or two to learn what phase relationships sound like when you have mics or cables that are wired out of phase rent for a weekend and learn .. ask all the questions you can here, from friends in the business ..

learn what Lav interference sounds like .. the radio interference if using wireless has a few warning signs as it starts to lose contact with transmitters .. walk to far from your receiver and you will learn what the edge of range sounds like .. what you start to hear as it goes will help you learn about that .. and what you can do to help when that happens ..

and the clothing and other body sounds humans make so you do not stop good takes for something that will never be heard over the voice of the talent ..

there is a lifetime of information to learn as each job is unique .. remember that and you will learn to be prepared for anything .. or almost


"Whispers to Screams" would be a cool name for a book about this career choice ...


cheers

john

[tsvisser]

I rarely operate a boom and stare at my meters or peak lights, I'm looking at the talent, their body movements, trying to predict their next delivery, and most importantly, as mentioned, monitoring the sound. Adjusting gain is best done by the mixer, in my opinion, and even so, should be done rather sparingly as the boom op and the mixer could end up adjusting for each other, especially if they haven't worked together much.

With respect to the grumpy soundmen, my perspective... I have not been mixing for 20 years, but closer to 8 or so would be fair. I mostly did smalltime indies and student stuff when I was in NYC and didn't really think to seek out an apprenticeship with an experience mixer while I lived there. I feel that I really missed out on an opportunity, rather than having to work things out on my own. Now in Hawaii I'm starting to do some better funded films, the occasional major TV show, etc... Work is so sparse, that the major local mixers simply do not have the work themselves to take on another mouth to feed, so it tends to turn into this sharkpit where work is doled out somewhat by seniority, somewhat by price competitiveness, but mostly by random luck it seems. Here, at least, it is true that apprenticeships are dead. Everyone is on their own. It is the new market paradigm. For the newbs, you have forums like these which can be a great resource, for the old timers, I can understand the angst, as a profession is withering away as we watch. I certainly respect those senior to me in my market, but I can't exit the business arena either, simply because an apprenticeship is not offered my way.

[tourtelot]

I didn't mean to suggest that anyone, with 20, 8, or less than one year of experience, exit the arena. What I am sad about is that everyone who goes about it in the new-skoolz way is having to re-invent the wheel and the craft of production sound, as in many other areas of film-making is being (and please nobody take this personally) "dumbed down" due to financial pressure and end-users who are more impressed by ledgers than by quality programming. Yes, the $200M features will still hire Hollywood's top sound mixers, but IMHO, episodic TV sounds so horrible today, as a rule, that it is nearly unwatchable. This is not merely a fact of run-away production using local, inexperienced mixers for the job in search of state film rebates and to avoid paying location expenses and higher rates for established production mixers from out of town, but as well by plenty of fresh out of school posties who can and will undercut the rates of the established facilities to get the work. No apprenticeships means these guys re-invent as well. It is similar to the way the experienced and well-equipped music studio owners feel about the proliferation of the "home studio."

Now here's the thing. This is not going to change. I realize that and have, mostly, made my peace with it. But it bodes poorly for the craft and it is my guess that it will never (need to) recover. I am old enough to consider retirement, and a part-time job taking the good projects, but it is going to be a slog through mediocrity, at best, for all those of the "new generation." Have fun making your pictures on digital still cameras<g>.

D.

[Mikycoud]

@Tourtelot: No offence taken sir. As far as I'm concerned, you didn't owe me (or anyone) an explanation for your' outburst'. I can fully understand that some more experienced users on these fora find some of the questions very basic and feel like the people asking them should have first done their homework. I know I have felt that way sometimes when answering noobs' questions about photography, composition, or editing (especially when the topic has been covered 1000 times).
That's why I said I'm very grateful to you all for having taken the time to answer my questions. That was sincere.
And you're right about theory being just the first few stairs to audio heaven, but as you also mentioned, sometimes, depending on your geographical location, financial status, social commitments etc (feel free to add, but you get my point), well, getting hands on experience is just not very practical, sometimes not even an option.
I'm sure it'll come to you as no surprise that in today's economical climate, clients expect you to do everything with a minimum crew, for a minimum amount of money, and expect maximum quality. Thus one has to learn new things in new areas every single day. What's more, one has to learn these things real fast and be 'good enough' at them, if one wanna see one's business through the financial year.
I fully agree that rushing things is not an 'ideal' way for learning the craft of working with audio. Trust me, I wish I was given more time with those Waves, I wish I could polish Envelopes, Notes and Harmonics. Mind you, I still gotta work under Pressure. But we all gotta, don't we, for time is money, and money is in Rarefaction.
So, in a nustshell, what I'm trying to say is I don't mind people like you having an 'outburst', I'm actually glad you did, it shows you care about your craft. Keep shouting Mr Tourtelot!
Apologies for the O.T.