Remoteness-"virtual gobos"

[Jim Easton]

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Remoteness, would you please touch upon the isolation mic techniques for live stage recordings which you call "Virtual Gobos".

You've stated, "it's all about mic placement and positioning"

Would you please post picture as well. It would be a great help for us visual learners.

Thank you for all the great music and knowledge you are sharing-!!



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[Remoteness]

Thank you for your kind words! That was very nice for you to say.

Ah yes, my "Virtual Gobo" technique…

It’s quite simple, really... "It’s all about the placement and positioning of all transducers involved with the live recording." This technique ensures that the sound quality of the recording is at a maximum, while on stage leakage is kept to a minimum.

To get more control of the recorded sound during the mix I tend to place and position the mics and speakers to maximize the isolation. You can curb the "bad" leakage with proper mic placement in reference to where the speakers are placed.

When we are primary audio on stage, we get to pick the mics and position them as we like. If necessary, we suggest different speaker placements to help the recording. It all depends on how important the recording is to the production. I try to position the mics away from loud sound sources. Kind of like a virtual gobo or gate. This is one place were "Vaporware" gobo's workout well. Pointing the mics away from the offensive sound source will yield better isolation and less noise to gate or mute later. That makes our job much easier during the mix process.

As you may already know, recording a live performance can be a challenging situation because you want to achieve the best possible recording without changing the artists’ world or making them uncomfortable. It’s a balance between the ultimate placement of microphones and what the artist and their engineers are comfortable with – especially for drums. Obviously we cannot always place gobos on stage to isolate the musicians during a live concert performance, but there are some simple ways to take advantage of microphone polar patterns to increase isolation and reduce leakage problems. By getting it right in the recording process, there’s no need to “fix it in the mix.” By the way, you can use these ideas for sound reinforcement dates as well.

Although there are usually no baffles around the drums, we’re able to achieve pretty good isolation of the drum mics from bass, guitar, piano, etc. – even where the overhead mics are concerned.

My drum mic'ing technique has been fairly consistent regardless of the drummer and kit. I haven’t changed my drum mic procedure in decades. The basic idea is that I position the mics to take advantage of their pickup patterns, and reduce leakage as much as possible. I rotate each and every mic so that the back of the polar pattern is pointing toward a stage monitor or whatever instrument might be challenging the drum sound. You need to keep the rejection point of the mic facing toward the offensive sound, minimizing the leakage. To check phase between the mics, I solo various combinations of mics in mono and listen carefully to whether the low end becomes weaker when they’re added together. If the low end weakens, I move the mic to help fatten the sound.

Drum overhead mics can be a source of unwanted leakage due to the fact that they’re generally placed around the kit pointing in “unfriendly” directions. For me, the key to isolating my beyer M160s (my favorite O/H mics for decades) is to place them high up, pointing straight down. Looking at the floor tom side I center one mic over the floor tom and cymbals. On the other (hi-hat) side of the kit I make sure that this overhead mic is centered somewhere between the snare, first rack tom and cymbals.

What’s interesting to me about this arrangement is that the higher I place the overheads (most of the time that is) above the kit, the more cymbals and drum kit I get, while the less bleed I get from the stage. It’s the reverse of what you’d expect, but the higher they go, the better the isolation of the kit from the rest of the stage. Bringing the overheads down close will give you more bell of the cymbals, but remember that you’re also closer to the other instruments and speakers. Sixty percent of my drum sound is a balance between the two overhead mics and the rest of the kit mics.

I will try to find some pictures for you to review.
You know I want to help all the “visual learners” out there!

Important note: If you're not mixing the tracks, this may cause some serious problems for the mixer down the road. They will not be able to "fix it in the mix" and unfortunately, you're also not helping the mixer's economics when you do this kind of stuff.

I welcome any additional questions or thoughts you folks my have...
Additional enlightenment is also welcomed!

[Remoteness]

I had five mics on the drums.

I used (1) U47FET on the Foot.

The Snare had (1) KM84.

Two (2) M160s were over the Drums.

The sweet spot mic over drummer's right shoulder was a TLM103.

Here's how I place the overhead & sweet spot mics over the kit...

[jenkel16]

how much fiddling with the sweet spot mic do you usually have to do? From the picture it looks like it would pickup alot of the stage monitors from the front of the stage.

[Remoteness]

We were in Right Track's Studio A509 (which is one of the largest recording rooms in the country) when we recorded Montgomery Gentry for "Stripped." The room dimensions are 85' long X 45' wide X 35' tall. Believe it or not when you solo those drum mics there would be absolutely no leakage from the other instruments or sounds in the room -- So, not much fiddling was necessary to make the drum mics work. For me, that sweet spot mic (many times) is the primary sound along with the overheads...

I used the same exact mic placement with this band called "Yellowcard" this past Thursday (11/10/05) at Right Track's Studio A with the same results. The whole band was in the same room but the drums were completely isolated from the rest of the musicians. The sweet spot mic and overheads were the main sound elements for the drum kit.

You will be able to hear what I did for Montgomery Gentry & Yellowcard on Stripped -- Raw & Real

Most of the bands I've recorded, engineered and produced for the Stripped series had the same mics and mic placement used for the drums.

[Remoteness]

Here are three photos my assistant Adam took of the live video shoot in the main tracking room at A509 before we completed our placement of the instruments, equipment and such...

[Jim Easton]

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Thanks for all the great pictures and information-!!... which leads to more question of course.

I do not have the exact mic's as you, but I do have a pair of AKG 480 with hyper capsules. Would these be ok in place of the m160 drum overheads? I also do not have a TLM but I do have a C12VR, would that work?

Would you please comment on:
I usually record jazz piano trio's on a concert stage. Where is the best place to position the mics on grand piano, upright bass and drums. I seem to be capturing a lot of hall reverberation, even though I mic close. What pattern mic setting would be best?

I now use a pair 414 on piano
441 and U87 on upright
C480's overhead drums and RE20 on kick

Also how should I have the trio set up, if thats an option?

Thanks very much-!!

~

[lukejs]

Just wanted to say thanks for your tips ......I don´t know of any other PRO who has contributed more than Steve Remote from Aura-Sonic .... Thanks for taking the time to give such in depth posts !!! Always very informative.

[Jim vanBergen]

It's Karma, baby, Karma! Steve is the best. I wonder if anyone else is secure enough in both what they do and who they are to share like Steve does. He has been doing this for years, even providing drum mic setup diagrams to trade mags like EQ. Kudos to you!

Steve, I mixed Yellowcard at the old Paramount (when it was The World, before becoming the new Hard Rock NYC) and wish I had your setup instead of what we used, though I had a good evening anyway. I look forward to hearing the mix. That room is AMAZING! Did you record to PT HD, analog, MX2424, or all of the above? Did you or someone else mix the final version?Did you a)Mix in the control room? B)Bring Jethro?

Tell me more!!

[Remoteness]

2db

Sure, go for it! Position those C480s pointing straight down over the kit. I tend to equally place one mic between the Cymbals and Floor Toms. The other is positioned between the Hats; Snare and Rack. I use a laser pointer to focus the mics exactly where I want them to live. As you already know the C480s are not ribbon mics (like the M160s) -- You’ll find a similar effect but a different sound of the kit.

The C12VR should workout nicely as a sweet spot mic over the (right-handed) drummer’s right shoulder. Try it out see if it works for you. A U47 would be awesome. I’ve also used my M149 for that task.

I take a fresh look at each and every music and audio/video recording I get involved in. I apply my usual mic'ing techniques with some variation when applicable. With that said, how do you record a Jazz Trio?

There’s really no “best place” to mic stuff. Options are our pals – Decide the placement based on the environment, sound of the instrument and how far something is from something else.

Oh, and I would setup the trio just like they want it setup maybe with some minor changes because it’s really about getting them to feel good about their space and vibe. Remember, great performances always override great sounding lame ass playing any day of the week.

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Lukejs

Thank you man!

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Jim

I appreciate the kind words. I try to show my true colors on and off this forum. I think you know were I'm coming from.

How was Yellowcard when you recorded them? I have plenty to say about my experience with them but unfortunately I cannot repeat it in this public forum. …Damn! I believe their (Stripped) video’s launch date is February 6th 2006.

We used Right Track’s A509 to record and mix that Montgomery Gentry shoot. Their video launched Tuesday of this week.

Yellowcard, Shinedown, James Blunt & Ludacris w/ DTP were recorded and mixed at Right Track’s Studio A. Some of the other artists were recorded at Avatar’s Studio A and Metropolis Television Studios. We also recorded in Nashville at Oceanway Nashville’s Studio B and at Starstruck. The stuff we did in LA was done at Conway’s Studio A & B.

At first these sessions were recorded to DTRS & PT HD. Nowadays we just go to PT HD since it’s live to tape without an audience.

I’m the series music producer and I also record, engineer and mix the dates. We typically mix right after the tracking session… yep, it’s frequently a very long ass day. In the beginning I was mixing the stuff in Jethro a day or so after the date. John Legend, Brad Paisley and Staind were mixed in Jethro. All the other sessions were mixed in the studios we recorded them in.

We have talked about bringing in one of the mobile units for these shoots… I suspect it will happen when it’s relevant.


Here are some shots of A509's CRM...

[Remoteness]

Here's another shot of A509's CRM...

[Remoteness]

...A few more pictures for your review. Any questions? I'm all ears

[Jim Easton]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

2db

Sure, go for it! Position those C480s pointing straight down over the kit. I tend to equally place one mic between the Cymbals and Floor Toms. The other is positioned between the Hats; Snare and Rack. I use a laser pointer to focus the mics exactly where I want them to live. As you already know the C480s are not ribbon mics (like the M160s) -- You’ll find a similar effect but a different sound of the kit.

The C12VR should workout nicely as a sweet spot mic over the (right-handed) drummer’s right shoulder. Try it out see if it works for you. A U47 would be awesome. I’ve also used my M149 for that task.

I take a fresh look at each and every music and audio/video recording I get involved in. I apply my usual mic'ing techniques with some variation when applicable. With that said, how do you record a Jazz Trio?

There’s really no “best place” to mic stuff. Options are our pals – Decide the placement based on the environment, sound of the instrument and how far something is from something else.

Oh, and I would setup the trio just like they want it setup maybe with some minor changes because it’s really about getting them to feel good about their space and vibe. Remember, great performances always override great sounding lame ass playing any day of the week.

.

Man the laser pointer is a great idea-!!

Do you use 441's on any particular instrument?

What mic's do you like to use on upright bass and grand piano. Are you using the virtual gobo on these instruments as well? Maybe like a hyper pattern etc?

Thanks for the great pictures, helps a lot-!!

Jim

[Remoteness]

Jim,

Like I said before, when a laser pointer is not available a stretched piece of strings works very well too.

MD441 is a clear and Hi-Fi sounding dynamic microphone so it works very nicely on most instruments and vocals... I've used it for drum overheads, upright bass, snare, kick, AGTR to name a few... I also have used it on guitar cabinets with good results. It works well on vocals too. It's an excellent dynamic mic that should be in everyone's microphone locker.

I have used a number of mics for concert bass and there are many more combos I want to try out... What comes to mind lately are KM84 pointed towards the bridge; SM98 w/ foam stuck in the f hole (NO, I'm not on drugs); I love an M149 when isolated; KM140; B&Ks (DPAs); MD409 on the bass cabinet... I also take the pickup into a nice sounding DI as a backup when the band is gets too loud. I've used MD441s when applicable. I'll try just about anything when there's enough time to play around. Does anyone have any additional suggestions out there?

For the grand piano I usually use two C414TLIIs. I've used other mics too -- M149s sound awesome on acoustic piano.

Upright bass and acoustic piano need more isolation than just applying my "virtual gobo" technique. Proper mic placement and strategic baffling is the way to go when tackling piano and slap bass isolation issues.

[Jim vanBergen]

Wow, Steve that desk goes on for days!!

Thanks for answering my questions; when I worked with Yellowcard they were young & just getting wet behind the ears- they came in to the venue and were having lunch (breakfast for them, I guess) and I sat down, introduced myself, and asked them about their music and influences so I would have a starting point for getting them a good mix. They were very nice and responsive, their manager loved what he heard at soundcheck and we had a great show. I don't think they were used to anyone caring enough to ask them about what they were trying to sound like, they were just starting to tour and had about a van's worth of backline, nothing more, and just one backline tech. I think one of the guys trashed a mic at the end of the show (which always pisses me off, my Green Day rant on that topic goes on for a while) but they put on a good show. This was before they had a top 10 hit though, and (lol) I bet they have learned some new tricks and attitudes. I'm sorry that they showed some 'true colors' for you, that's a shame. Its the old rock and roll guys who lose the attitude and remember its about the music who get my respect, like The Troggs and the New York Dolls I did on New Years Eve.

As always, I'm in awe of your tricks and process! Love the laser pointer, but that desk...I'm still trying to figure out how many sections there are, it looks like SIX!

Peace!!

[joaquin]

Thank you very much Steve for sharing your Knowledge.

How do you usually Mix, Pan and Level wise, the Mics in the Drums? especially the Sweet spot Mic respect to the OHs?

Thanks one more Time....................Joaquin.

[Remoteness]

Jim:

Yeah, Studio A509’s SSL is a 96 channel console with five sections.
Studio A's also had a 96 channel Neve desk with five sections. They have since replaced it with another SSL 9000 to keep their studios "mix" friendly between the rooms.

Yellowcard are still young and wet behind the ears but, now they have a couple of top 10 hits…

Cool, you did the Troggs and the New York Dolls. Excellent, which truck did you use?
And how’s Shelby Werwa doing?

Thanks again for the very kind words.

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Joaquin:

So, if I’m using two M160s for over head and a sweet spot mic behind the drummer over his right shoulder with the addition of a kick and a snare mic, I mix, pan and balance them as follows…

When I mix for a live show, I always mix as per audience (camera) perspective. If I’m mixing a studio record, I always mix as per the drummer’s perspective. I usually start with the two overheads. They are my principle sound for the kit -- Their placement is everything to me. I pan them hard left and right and listen to how they sound. Depending on how I approach the other mics I may tighten up the spread and may end up with the M160s panned at 9 and 3 o’clock or so. It’s all about how they work with the other drum mics and how they fit in the mix with the rest of the instruments and such. Many times I have ended up with them at 7 and 5 o’clock because the sweet spot mic played a bigger (and more centered) roll in the final drum mic blend.

I like to place the kick and snare off center a bit – Kick to the left at about 11 o’clock and the snare is mirrored at about 1 o’clock in the mix. I then bring them up slowly blending them into the overhead mics. Keep in mind; I always reference them individually by soloing them in place separately and in groups to hear what’s being affected by each and every mic… Does this make any sense?

Once I get the overheads, kick and snare mics in order I then find a placement and balance for that sweet spot mic. Sometimes it may stay centered or I may favor the left or right side of the mix depending on what the kick and snare mics are doing to the final drum balance. There’s no set rule because I have blended the overheads and sweet spot mic together before I brought the kick and snare into the picture.
The drummer also plays a big role in how I address the mics and stuff. The better the drummer the easier my life is during the mix.

Again, thanks a bunch for the friendly words.

[joaquin]

Thanks one more time Steve!!
If I understood correctly, Your first main balance is with the OHs and the sweetspot mic. From there bring in the Kick and Snare and finally readjust the sweetspot mic according to the new additions....is that correct?
I'm practicing Drums regulary now, and I always find that the drumers sweet spot, where my ears are, has the best sound ever. I believe that your right shoulder mic can get very close to it...I'm asuming you use it in a cardioid pattern!? I'm going to experiment with it in this coming days and I'll let you know my impressions...I want to try it Omni too!?
Anyway. Thank you one more time for your Help..............................Joaquin.

[Remoteness]

Yes, I first balance the OHs, and then I make sure I'm getting everything I want from the sweet spot mic. I make sure "everything is everything" during the tracking session to guarantee that the mix session will go smoothly. Mic placement is everything when you're using only a few mics.

From there I bring in the kick and snare and finally readjust the sweet spot mic and/or the kick/snare mics according to the new additions. But, I have done it other ways. In any event I always start off with the OHs. They're my principle sound source.

Yes, I agree, the drummer's sweet spot usually is where they hear it. That is why I place that mic over their shoulder. I usually go with a cardioid pattern but I have used omni, hypercardioid and even figure-eight patterns… It really depends on the environment of my surroundings.

Look at it this way, anything goes, anything is possible -- The key is experimentation.

Let's us know how it went. I really want to hear your thoughts on this matter.

Enjoy!!

[Matt Grondin]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

...A few more pictures for your review. Any questions? I'm all ears

Hey, did you have a good gig with Shinedown? That's brother-in-law Jasin to the far right, your left. They are one of the most rocking bands out there in my opinion, but I'm a bit biased I guess. That's a trip that you've worked with them and Yellowcard... they are both from my hometown of Jacksonville, FL and I went to high school with the guys in Yellowcard. Not my cup of tea by any means, but I guess it's good to see they are doing well. The only person I really stay in touch with is Pete the bass player.... I played some shows with his other band, Inspection 12, as a favor, even though I never play any punk-related music. Small world, I guess.

[Remoteness]

I had a GREAT time recording and mixing Shinedown. They ARE truly one of the most rockin’ bands out there. …They are also very humble and wonderful to work with. I hope I get a chance to work with them fully "plugged in' electric.

Checkout the “Stripped” Shinedown Interview – They talk about the various bands that came out of Jacksonville, FL.

Have you checked out Shinedown’s performance on Stripped? You can find their stuff by going to Stripped -- Raw & Real

Tell us what you think of the music production for Shinedown.

[Matt Grondin]

Will do! Thanks for the quick response Steve.

[Remoteness]

Sometimes I want more than a "Virtual Gobo" situation. But, we cannot always place large gobos in the shot during a video shoot.

Here's are three pictures of my "Micro Gobo" set-up.
I take a Popper Stopper pop filter with goose neck and tape cardboard and/or foam to it. I then focus it until it deflects the offending sound from the mic I'm using.

These photos were taken during an Anthony Hamilton video shoot at Avatar Studios in NYC...

This time around my Micro Gobo technique was used for a U87 on a Fender Twin.

Check it out below!

[Remoteness]

Here's a couple of shoots of the set....

[Remoteness]

We were at Oceanway Nashville on a video shoot with Gretchen Wilson.

In this set-up I use my Micro Gobo on the upright bass to help isolate the snare from the KM84 I had at the bridge... The drums were in the same room and way too close to that slap bass!

It wasn't too bad but, I wanted to do something more and mic positioning was not enough for the isolation I was going for.

This time we used the pop filter with only cardboard. Once we placed the micro gobo on the stand I leaned down to the level of the bass mic so I can see the KM84 and snare drum at the same trajectory. I then had my assistant move the micro gobo until it eclipsed the snare. I knew if I could not see the snare from that vantage point the back of the KM84 wasn't hearing it either.

To finish off the bass / snare isolation trick, I then made a "Mini Gobo" out of cardboard and packing material. I cut a V shaped hole at the bottom of the cardboard so I can place it on the back end of the snare mic stand's boom arm. We then covered it with black material to make it look more visually appealing to the cameras.

It worked out wonderfully. The snare and bass sounded like they were in isolation booths. The bass sound was improved 120%.

[Remoteness]

Here a shot of the front line mics and such...

[Jim Easton]

Steve,

I learned more from this thread then the last dozen recording books I looked at.

Thanks for doing and AAA+ job on answering question with marvelous pictures and tips. Between reading this thread and Another Kind of Blue - the Latin Side of Miles Davis thread I feel like I have just taken an informed course on Field Recording, that will effect the way I think and record for the rest of my career.

I owe you big, man!!!!!

I can't thank you enough-!!

Jim Easton

[Remoteness]

Jim,

What can I say? That was a very thoughtful thing to declare.
I want to take this time to thank all the excellent contributors to this forum too.
I don't want to list the names because I don't want to leave anyone out...
You know who you are -- You all are a great asset to this forum.

Remember, you folks really make the difference and it clearly shows!

Here's a link to the "Another Kind of Blue - the Latin Side of Miles Davis" thread for those that haven't seen or heard it yet... Just click on the title above.

[island-dave]

Ok Steve,
Can I pay to be your cable jockey? seriously. I have to agree with the other comments here, you are too kind for taking the time and sharing real world issues problems and practical solutions, some of which are just pure genius. I really can't believe how much I've learned just from reading this (and just about every thread in the Remote Possibilities section). I honestly don't know how you find the time to write such clear, well thought-out posts, but I'm really glad you do.

Thanks! thumbsup


Dave

[Remoteness]

Thanks Dave,

The answer is...

I never sleep so, I end up spending it online or doing something around the house. But, there have been times when I just don't have anytime. And my free time is spent sleeping. I try to keep close to the forum, making sure everything is everything.

That Salsa gig happened over three weeks ago, and today was the first chance I had to post something about it...

Thanks again brosky!