2 mic's for live jazz drums

[tmcconnell]

I'm looking for advice for upcoming gig. Its a good sounding jazz room and I am not sure about the drums. I will have two (could use 3) channels for the drums. The music is pretty much bop.

The mics I will have available for the drums are a royer 122, gefel umt70s, 4047 sv, sure ksm32, soundeluxe e49, and a wide selection of great dynamic mics I normally use in the studio for close work. The e49 seems like an obvious choice for a mono oh (kind of blue was made using m49's) but I am a little concerned its too scooped to match with the 122 in a pair.

Any thought on choice, pattern, and placement to cover the drum set? Kick often sounds just fine in the overheads or room mic in Jazz. I would default to a spaced pair left and right of the drummer slightly behind and over the kit. I was thinking, however, to capture the kick better absent a kick mic, I might place them lower and behind, or lower and in front? How will the fig 8 work as an oh with the cardioid? (I considered MS, but mono integrity will be less important than drum balance.). Thanks in advance for any advice. t

[soypancho]

I've used Steve Remote's drum trick of putting an omni near the drummers right knee. It has worked beautifully along with a pair of overheads set up with the "recorderman" method. Let the player, the kit, and the room tell you which mics to use in this arrangement.

[Jim Williams]

This is jazz, not rock?

I use a pair of AKG 414B's or 460B's spread overhead. These are mics without transformers to retain transients. Flat mics with great 20k response are best.

I use a RE-20 on the kick and that's it. Any more and it's not jazz, it's pop.

BTW, it also works great for roots music and blues. Less is more, more or less...

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[waxx]

i would agree with jim on this, just kick and overhead (could be mono but preferable stereo in most cases). Jazz don't like close miced drums in any way.

for kick i would take also something like a RE20 (a senheiser 441 can also do it right) and for overheads i would take some clean musical and fast sdc or ldc in cardioid or ribbons. Actually the best i did was with an old rca 44 ribbon 2m high above the drum (but then you need the right boomstand and a high space). a condensor has a different sound than a ribbon, but both can work on this. for stereo micing (for wich i would use condesors in card) i like to place them in A/B but high in front of the drums. pointing to the snare in an angle of 60° from the floor and about 1.5m away from the drums.

[bhp]

122 1-3 feet in front of the kick, away from a cutout, if there is one (no air).
e49s in omni in front of the kit 2-3 feet, 6 feet apart, height 24" to 48" adjust to get the best blend of toms/snare v cymbals. In a perfect world another Royer on the snare would be great, esp for stirring soup.

[roger]

R84 and ...... um.......an R84 - 2 overheads done!.....warm cozy and full!

[Jim Williams]

Rolled off ribbon mics may be all the rage for rock productions into strident pro tools systems, but for acoustic jazz it's all about the intimacy and transients, unless you want an old Gene Krupa type 1940's sound.

Listen to older stuff like Elvin Jones, Tony Williams, Jack Digonett (sp?) and you will learn fast.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[sailor]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Listen to older stuff like Elvin Jones, Tony Williams, Jack Digonett (sp?) and you will learn fast.

Dejohnette.

Sorry, grammar/spelling geek here. You asked!

Good point though. Great drummers all.

[PlugHead]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

This is jazz, not rock?

I use a pair of AKG 414B's or 460B's spread overhead. These are mics without transformers to retain transients. Flat mics with great 20k response are best.

I use a RE-20 on the kick and that's it. Any more and it's not jazz, it's pop.

BTW, it also works great for roots music and blues. Less is more, more or less...

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

+1 (or 3)

Overhead(s) and a kick mic and stick a fork in it - it's done!

I like ribbons, but for live, I think neutral sounding SDC's would be best, and either a 441/421/RE20 or even D112 should suffice for kick.

BTW - CAD E-100's are great kick mics too!

[MIKEHARRIS]

3 a RoyerSF24 & M88

(actually two mics...one just has 2 outputs)

[Etch-A-Sketch]

KSM141s on overheads in an XY
KM84 on snare
KSM32 on outside of kick

The bulk of the sound comes from the overheads. You could do a mono OH if you want instead of stereo. After that you'll need to bring up the kick mic a little to add umph. Then the snare mic you can bring in a hair to add some detail.

Also, you don't need to use these mics. U47s and U47s fets are pretty standard fair as are ribbon mics like coles. The majority of the sound is in the drummers hands and the room. You just have to make sure you stay out of the way and don't do anything to mess that up.

Just remember if you put a ribbon in front of the kick, use a pop filter or angle the mic so the wind from the kick doesn't pop the ribbon.

[Trev@Circle]

the first track listed on the page linked below named "Circle Drum Room - room mics on jazz kit" was a Gretsch kit with a pair of AEA R84's in Blumlein out in front of the kit (5-6 feet from memory): Circle Studios on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

[nomoreflakes]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

KSM141s on overheads in an XY
KM84 on snare
KSM32 on outside of kick

The bulk of the sound comes from the overheads. You could do a mono OH if you want instead of stereo. After that you'll need to bring up the kick mic a little to add umph. Then the snare mic you can bring in a hair to add some detail.

Also, you don't need to use these mics. U47s and U47s fets are pretty standard fair as are ribbon mics like coles. The majority of the sound is in the drummers hands and the room. You just have to make sure you stay out of the way and don't do anything to mess that up.

Just remember if you put a ribbon in front of the kick, use a pop filter or angle the mic so the wind from the kick doesn't pop the ribbon.

very, very cool. nice work

[ajfarber]

Jazz drums live? It all depends on the size of the venue. I have been on many gigs where there have been mics and none were needed. Personally, I think jazz should be as acoustic as possible.

If you must mic jazz drums for a large venue, keep it to a minimum. 1 or 2 OH. 1 mic for snare/hh area. You may not need a bass drum mic, but if you do, any sm57 will be fine. RE20, Beyer m88 and that sort of thing is even better. Remember, this is a bass drum, not a "kick drum".

Never put a hole in the bass drum head, and don't even ask. Jazz drummers hate that. You won't get the proper sound anyway.

The only way to do live sound for a jazz band, is to listen to them play acoustically, and make your house mix sound exactly the same. If you try to "enhance" the mix in any "creative" way, you're doing it wrong.

But to answer the first question, 2 mic on jazz drums? Yes, 1 main OH to pick up the entire set, and 1 in the snare/hh area for extra HH "chip" and brush pattern on snare. The bass drum will leak enough.

[Trev@Circle]

Doh! I totally missed the fact it was for a live sound gig!

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by rimskidog

Doh! I totally missed the fact it was for a live sound gig!

I might actually mic drums the same for live or studio. I would use different mics in the studio, but still use only 2 or 3 total. Unless, of course, the studio was small and we had to use an iso booth. Then, and only then, do I use a stereo overhead.

Sorry gang, that was too much unsolicited information.

[avebr]

I would go overheads, with two MKH800s - if you need to control the room, using fig8, cardio, hyper,... or two omni Josephsons C617 if it's a really nice room. Schneider disk with C617s can be great sometimes, trickyer to position.

You can add another pair (AB, omnis) in front of the kit, at some heigh and distance for room sound only - if style allows.

Again depending on the style, maybe add an additional (big) dynamic for kick and MD441 for snare/brush details/definition - but can end not being used very very little.

(...)

...But all these are not 2 mics, so let's keep on the first paragraph!

all the best,
ave.

[fifthcircle]

I've always been a big fan of a stereo mic in front of the kit... I posted a picture of an SF-24 in front of a drum set for reference here, but I cannot seem to find it right now...

Anyways, I position the mic under the cymbals about 18"-2-1/2' out. More often than not, I go with a mid-side pickup for this with the mid mic aiming right at the snare just over the toms. It takes a bit of tweaking to find the sweet spot, but when placed correctly, you can get a great sound on the kit that the player controls.

I have most often used my AKG 426 stereo mic for this, but I also like the Royer SF-24 and Neumann SM-69 tube mics.

On my website, the examples are pretty old, but #3 is a Shure VP88, #7 is an SM69, #8 is a 426. They aren't perfect, but can give you some ideas on the range of sounds possible.

-Ben

[tmcconnell]

Thanks all. Lots of good ideas here. t

[7rojo7]

I mix this to mono, CCM21 on the floor tom/ride cymbal side right in front of the kit and not too high (18" over the ride) pointed at the HH, another CCM21 pointed at exactly the same angle a foot back and pointed at the space between the kik and the floor tom. Moved mics around for years to find this.
Saw a video of Black Sabbath once (69?) where there were only a pair of U67s, one above the kit on the HH side pointed across the kit and another 'below' the kit on the floor tom side pointing up directly opposite the other mic, they were about a foot out on either side, I can only guess that they were out of phase to work correctly, never had time to try it but it would make sense.
I've had kits with top and bottom on every drum (common mode rejection is amazing), LCR OHs, cymbal spots, shotgunned snare, tunneled kik, boundary mics and multiple room mics though. more is more.

[salomonander]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Rolled off ribbon mics may be all the rage for rock productions into strident pro tools systems, but for acoustic jazz it's all about the intimacy and transients, unless you want an old Gene Krupa type 1940's sound.

Listen to older stuff like Elvin Jones, Tony Williams, Jack Digonett (sp?) and you will learn fast.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

i dont understand you. are you saying that there were not ribbons in involved in these recordings?

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by salomonander

i dont understand you. are you saying that there were not ribbons in involved in these recordings?

Not ribbons. All of the classic mid 50s-late 60s jazz would have the drums recorded with condenser. Usually 1 mic for the whole drum set. 2 mics at Van Gelder's.

Before the mid 50s it was common to record drums with ribbons like RCA77, RCA44 or Altec "birdcage".

[Yannick]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

I've always been a big fan of a stereo mic in front of the kit... I posted a picture of an SF-24 in front of a drum set for reference here, but I cannot seem to find it right now...

Anyways, I position the mic under the cymbals about 18"-2-1/2' out. More often than not, I go with a mid-side pickup for this with the mid mic aiming right at the snare just over the toms. It takes a bit of tweaking to find the sweet spot, but when placed correctly, you can get a great sound on the kit that the player controls.
-Ben

That is my preferred way, if the positioning is possible (live)
I even find the cymbals sound more natural this way, they have more body.
IMO it is a common misconception that drums or cymbaks or timpani are designed to sound "upwards"

[Carotte]

This is how a Royer SF-12 sounds on drum OH with only a speaker cone to humph the kick a bit... No processing, this is raw... You can see pictures of the set up on my blog post. The mp3 file is also there (couldn't upload it here, too big!). Cheers!