Prevent a bad soundman from killing your show

[brianaustinny]

This post is about ways to prevent a bad soundman from killing your show.

Why? Because it happens so often. And IMO it's killing local live music. As a musician until you reach a certain level you have to deal with clubs and soundmen that have no idea what they are doing. It's bad for the fans and bad for the band.

Any advice, tips, techniques, gear that can help with the problem? Is there anything that has really made a difference?

[brianaustinny]

My rant: Alright, last night's show was the worst ever. Howling feedback through the first four songs, at which point the soundman completely turned off the vocal mic in the mains and monitors. So no vocals. Then the power to the amps intermittently cut out. The sound was sooo bad that the manager apologized after the set and bought us drinks for the rest of the night.

Maybe we can start a 'I can't do my job and should be banned from the industry thread'... An armful of tats doesn't make you not suck, dude.

rant over.

[DannyL]

I'd start with:

1) Turn everything down. This goes for both you and the sound operator.
2) Don't abuse the subs. If you can feel your digestive processes altering with the pulse of the kick drum the sub woofers are disproportionately loud.
3) Certainly NOT last on the list: Bring your own sound person.

Loud can be okay, but it is no substitute for balance. In fact it is most often anathema to musical balance. The human ear shuts down over a certain level. If the sound man mixes at or below that level, people will hear everything and think that everything sounds louder. If the sound person exceeds that threshold no body will be able to tell the difference between the snare drum or the lead vocal.

You will notice that bars with lower spl's will sell more drinks and do more business generally than bars with extremely high spl's. It is easier to relay orders when you don't have to scream for your pint.

Very often the mix position is the one place in the club where you cannot hear anything. Have a friend come along if you don;t have an actual professional in your employ and let them walk around and check the balance, and then have the house person make the necessary adjustments.

Oh yeah....be nice to the sound person, even if you need to vomit afterwards. If you get them mad, you will NEVER get what you want or need.

Danny

[morchid]

haha! great thread start! i can't count the number of times we've had to deal with crap sound. My tips:

1. buy a cable tester. the club doesn't have one. i guarantee it. what they do have plenty of are crap cables that should be fixed or tossed.

2. buy a hum eliminator. my amp would buzz like a bee hive in some of the places i play if i didn't have it. also wear rubber soled shoes as you could possibly be electrocuted by the shoddy wiring in many clubs.

3. Keys - if you DI them bring an amp too. Getting a sound guy to put them in the monitor is nearly impossible. Not sure why, but sound people hate keyboardists.

4. Singers - learn to sing with at least one ear plug in. Mixing monitors is a lost art.

5. If you have better equipment, don't be afraid to ask to hook it up. Many clubs skimp on their sound equipment.

i can probable think off some more soon......

[63hz]

Bring your own soundguy, its gonna cost you but now you have seen what its worth,

Soundcheck when you can, if it means coming in early or buying the house guy dinner for going out of his way so be it.

And biggest point don't blame tattoos

And its not killing live music. I've been to plenty of gigs where it sounds horrible, lack of vocals, bad feedback. I will normally have a talk to the band after the show and give them my card

And what do you as a band do for your levels, do you get the drummer to play acoustically and set your guitar and bass amps to a level you can hear without being over bearing on the room? does the drummer hit excessively loud.

does your singer have horrible technique where there quiet as a mouse, but require its blaring in the foldback.

I find bands who have the above sorted sound great from the get go and you actually get to mix the band instead of fighting everything.

Its an easy thing to blame the soundguy (and yes i agree sometimes it is due to their incompetence) but often its the band and they don't realize.

Trav

[Storyville]

Having a little muscle helps. I tend to be just a bit of an ass - because I know I can do most of the live sound myself if need be. I tell the sound guy exactly what I want. If he doesn't get it together the way I like, I stop everything and ask the audience - is the kick drum loud enough? Is the snare loud enough? Bass? Guitars? I'll sound check right there if I have to.

Honestly, it's tough. If it's a situation where you know the promoter you can usually kick the sound guy out if you have to and just run your own.

Of course, the other side of the coin is equally as important. If the sound guy is doing his thang, she/he deserves a tip, and a thank you from the stage. Remember that person's name, and don't say "hey sound guy."

Be as nice as you can to get what you want.

[63hz]

stopping your show and yelling out to the audience if they can here the snare drum has to be about the most unprofessional thing I have ever heard

[SonicSkippy]

i saw Kevin Nealon at Montblue in tahoe a few months ago. I checked out the mixing console before the show, the pre show music was being played from a pink mp3 player. No human there. If there was even a sound guy he had no idea what a compressor is. the voice peaks were way too loud. this world is going to shit.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by 63hz

stopping your show and yelling out to the audience if they can here the snare drum has to be about the most unprofessional thing I have ever heard

Then don't **** up the sound.

Let me re-up. The sound guys job is really just to get things heard. It's sound reinforcement. Not studio work. I could care less if the sound guy feels it's unprofessional - as long as my audience is getting what they want. My job is to make them happy - and if the sound isn't working, yes, I will unprofessionally stop the show, get the sound right, and pick up again. The audience is number one, period.

[63hz]

mmm i stand by that being the most unprofessional thing I have ever heard

[GZsound]

I am the travelling sound engineer for a band and I can attest to the plethora of bad sound guys out there.

The biggest problem is that they are being told what to buy and have no clue how to use it.

My most difficult problem is deciding how to offer assistance without being a jerk. Some guys let me take the board, some won't let me near it. Some will take advice on EQ, some won't.

Since I travel with an acoustic band, my biggest complaint is with sound systems and sound guys who only do rock and roll. The PA is all highs and subs and no mid range at all, which is where acoustic instruments live. But all the "professionals" say you can't make music sound good these days unless you have two thousand watt subs. I say BS.

And you should hear the howls of complaint when I tell them we use THREE LD mics on stage. Many of them freak out and have no clue.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by Storyville

Having a little muscle helps. I tend to be just a bit of an ass - because I know I can do most of the live sound myself if need be. I tell the sound guy exactly what I want. If he doesn't get it together the way I like, I stop everything and ask the audience - is the kick drum loud enough? Is the snare loud enough? Bass? Guitars? I'll sound check right there if I have to.

Honestly, it's tough. If it's a situation where you know the promoter you can usually kick the sound guy out if you have to and just run your own.

Of course, the other side of the coin is equally as important. If the sound guy is doing his thang, she/he deserves a tip, and a thank you from the stage. Remember that person's name, and don't say "hey sound guy."

Be as nice as you can to get what you want.

I agree with at least half of what you say, but also hear one typical red flag muso cliche', "I know I can do most of the live sound myself if need be". That's an assumption that will bite you in the a** many times over. I do however, agree with you that there are many sub-standard live guys out there, and that is a big problem. You do however, also "get what you pay for" for the most part. You want a good sounding gig? Hire a known "good" sound guy. Remember, there are some of us out there that have a pretty good handle on it, you just might pale in comparison. Another disturbing, condescending quip: "The sound guys job is really just to get things heard. It's sound reinforcement. Not studio work." That is really narrow thinking, especially in the "big time" show world. You really should be in the spirit of working with the soundperson, as you would a studio engineer. You could be truly amazed by the results. My suggestion is that you give them something really great sounding to mix, then you've truly done your part for the audience as well. Great thought about praise, tips, drinks, etc. That can get you a long way, help validate a rising "sound star's" hard work, and further encourage their learning process. I know it did mine...............

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by Beyersound

I agree with at least half of what you say, but also hear one typical red flag muso cliche', "I know I can do most of the live sound myself if need be". That's an assumption that will bite you in the a** many times over. I do however, agree with you that there are many sub-standard live guys out there, and that is a big problem. You do however, also "get what you pay for" for the most part. You want a good sounding gig? Hire a known "good" sound guy. Remember, there are some of us out there that have a pretty good handle on it, you just might pale in comparison. Another disturbing, condescending quip: "The sound guys job is really just to get things heard. It's sound reinforcement. Not studio work." That is really narrow thinking, especially in the "big time" show world. You really should be in the spirit of working with the soundperson, as you would a studio engineer. You could be truly amazed by the results. My suggestion is that you give them something really great sounding to mix, then you've truly done your part for the audience as well. Great thought about praise, tips, drinks, etc. That can get you a long way, help validate a rising "sound star's" hard work, and further encourage their learning process. I know it did mine...............

I completely agree with everything you have said. You are spot on. There are live sound guys who can do amazing things, who make me look like the college stage hand trying to remember where the sends go. A friend of mine used to do live sound for Aerosmith, as well as others. That guy can build a live sound rig from parts if need be.

But let's be real about the big time show world - if you f up the way the local bar guys f up you get fired. Done. Bye. No questions asked, your assistant just got a promotion - if you're lucky you get to wrap some cables. Remember, over - under - over - under.

You do get what you pay for. Bringing in a pro is a great idea. Can't afford a pro - hey, if the sound guy at the night club gets your sound right she/he should get a little extra - cause lord knows the sound folk ain't getting paid well by the club.

Now, at the local show - no one needs a magician. Let the musicians make the magic - the sound engineer really doesn't need to make Bar 4 sound like Madison Square. If she/he does, kudos - I'll be calling next time I'm in town with a special request to have that sound person.

But, let's say you've got the guy where the number one instruction on the itinerary is "please allow the cello to sound like a cello, not like a guitar." And for whatever reason the sound person has magically eq'd out everything under 300hz. Hopefully that can all be hashed out politely during sound check. If that happens during my set - it's embarrassing for me and makes the people who came to see me unhappy - so best believe shit can and will roll down hill.

If the sound person is doing a Hip Hop show, and the kick is barely coming through the speakers during the opening act's set, and I say, hey the kick needs to be a lot louder - and he says "ok", then I get on stage and the kick is still quiet as can be..... well, call it unprofessional, call me an ass, whatever, I stop the opening number and ask the audience if the kick drum is loud enough. Apparently, the sound guy didn't believe me when I said it, so maybe the hundred people I brought out saying "no" in unison is enough signal to the sound guy to turn it the hell up. And hopefully enough signal to the promoter to communicate that if the sound guy doesn't get it together those hundred plus people I brought out will not be at the next event.

Ultimately, I can't really run my own sound during a show. But I have an assistant who can man the board, and I'm more than capable of setting up with whatever the local bar has.

When I'm touring nationally, I expect the sound cat to have a gruff and unsavory attitude, a holier than thou demeanor, to do what I could only hope to do with ten more years experience doing live sound and make me sound like Zeus just opened up the heavens, to accept the very large tip I give, and to join me for a few beers if time allows. When I'm doing the bar circuit, I just want the sound guy not to leave feedback and to get the levels up.


Ok... thanks for allowing the rant... I'm outty.

[jude]

Originally Posted by Storyville

Having a little muscle helps. I tend to be just a bit of an ass - because I know I can do most of the live sound myself if need be. I tell the sound guy exactly what I want. If he doesn't get it together the way I like, I stop everything and ask the audience - is the kick drum loud enough? Is the snare loud enough? Bass? Guitars? I'll sound check right there if I have to.

you areally are a DICK! seriously ive mixed for plenty of know it alls like you. us sound guys dont interupt you mid chorus and tell you and the audience just how out of key you are, nor do we come in to mcdonalds how to mop the floor... see where im going here fuuck

so, you can sing, or play drums... and mix FOH. wow you are a really tallented man.

maybe you should be profesional enough to rock up a few hours before the shows and do a proper soundcheck. people like you are the idiots in bands i hate mixing, and to be honest if you pulled that shit at a show i was mixing, id pitch your monitor send down just enough that youd sing out of key the rest of the night.

yes i have done it, yes the band copped loads from their fans and got told not to bother comming back to the venue. all this because they lacked people skills

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by jude

you areally are a DICK! seriously ive mixed for plenty of know it alls like you. us sound guys dont interupt you mid chorus and tell you and the audience just how out of key you are, nor do we come in to mcdonalds how to mop the floor... see where im going here fuuck

so, you can sing, or play drums... and mix FOH. wow you are a really tallented man.

maybe you should be profesional enough to rock up a few hours before the shows and do a proper soundcheck. people like you are the idiots in bands i hate mixing, and to be honest if you pulled that shit at a show i was mixing, id pitch your monitor send down just enough that youd sing out of key the rest of the night.

yes i have done it, yes the band copped loads from their fans and got told not to bother comming back to the venue. all this because they lacked people skills

My perspective from the other side of the board. I have been doing concert sound for 40+ years.

1. Turn down your stage volume. We did a show where the only microphones we had up were the vocal microphones because the band was so LOUD that they did not need any amplification and we could not get the vocals loud enough to even register because of the excessive stage volume. Repeated requests for the band to "turn it down a notch" were not headed and in fact the guitar player turned up his amplifier and his guitar up full to show his displeasure at the request. I cannot balance you if there are no direct boxes and no microphones on the instruments so if the guitar is above everything else there is not much I can do about it back at the audio console.

2. Be nice to the person that is doing the show. If you treat the sound engineer like S**T that is probably how the show will sound. Practice the golden rule. I don't know you guys from Adam so first impressions are what I will judge you on. If you throw a hissy fit because we don't have the exact microphone you want it is going to be a long show. If your management approved the redone tech rider then take up the problem with them and don't scream at me. Don't ask the liquored up audience about how the show sounds as they are really not in a position to make clear judgments and it really pisses me off BIG TIME!

3. Be on time for the sound check. If the sound check is suppose to be at 6 pm because the doors are going to open at 7:30 pm for an 8:00 show then be there and don't show up at 7:15 expecting to have a full sound check.

4. Keep your information up to date. If I am expecting a four piece group and you show up with 8 musicians things could get interesting.

5. Don't request 18 microphones on the drum set. It is NOT going to happen and I would have to spend all my time trying to balance out 18 microphones just for the drummer.

6. Don't wear double ear plugs and then say that the monitor levels are too low. Either take out one set of ear plugs or use in ear monitors.

7. Don't show up with your own "sound engineer" if it has not been worked out well in advance. And if you have your own "sound engineer" make sure he or she is conversant with modern sound equipment. Things like digital boards, speaker processors and digital amplifiers are a fact of life and I cannot "teach" your "audio engineer" how to use a digital board in 15 minutes.

8. This is not an us and them situation so the more we work together the better the sound and the show will be.

9. Don't do a quiet sound check and then blow the roof off the club when you play the set. Sound checks are suppose to be for problem solving and not just to get the band warmed up.

10. Communications is the name of the game. The more we communicate the better it is for all concerned. If you and your band mates are going to consume large quantities of booze and then expect to play and make rational judgments it AIN'T going to happen. The more the liquor flows the more problems arise. You are getting paid to provide music and not to get drunk. Be a professional and don't let an alcoholic daze be your signature way of playing. The same with drugs. If you are going to do drugs do them AFTER the show not before.

From my perspective and YMMV.

[matt thomas]

As others have said:

Hire a professional and experienced PAID sound guy that you like. The sound guy is as important as the musicians.

Thats really the end of the story.

If you must go with a free-bee/cheap/house/inexperienced guy, turn down the guitar amps on stage. Have as little in your monitors as possible (as in only vocals for example, not meaning as quiet as possible), have a proper sound check, remember that the concert will sound nothing like the soundcheck.

matt

[Frisbieinstein]

Originally Posted by brianaustinny

This post is about ways to prevent a bad soundman from killing your show.

?

Shoot first. Ask questions afterward.

Your show may depend on it.

[David Spearritt]

I am not going to any more amplified concerts ever again. I got it out of my system for good last week.

Went to James Taylor and Carol King at the Brisbane Entertainment Centre. Sound was so bad and so loud I lasted three songs and had to leave and go buy earplugs, thankfully for sale at the popcorn stand. Listened to the rest of the concert with them deeply inserted.

Two nights later, went to Lyle Lovett in QPAC, sound better but right on the cusp of too loud all night. Earplugs were in for the support act, Kasey Chambers, whose vocal was waaay too loud and really harsh and horrible.

Almost certainly the sound guys are deaf. They are oblivious to acoustic balance and flat response from the PA, but who do you protest to?

I've had enough, high ticket prices for auditory torture. Forget it.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

I am not going to any more amplified concerts ever again. I got it out of my system for good last week.

Went to James Taylor and Carol King at the Brisbane Entertainment Centre. Sound was so bad and so loud I lasted three songs and had to leave and go buy earplugs, thankfully for sale at the popcorn stand. Listened to the rest of the concert with them deeply inserted.

Two nights later, went to Lyle Lovett in QPAC, sound better but right on the cusp of too loud all night. Earplugs were in for the support act, Kasey Chambers, whose vocal was waaay too loud and really harsh and horrible.

Almost certainly the sound guys are deaf. They are oblivious to acoustic balance and flat response from the PA, but who do you protest to?

I've had enough, high ticket prices for auditory torture. Forget it.

I went to Blossom Music Center, the Summer home of the Cleveland Orchestra, for a James Taylor show. The sound was deafening and distorted inside the pavilion. At intermission I walked up to the sound engineer and introduced myself. He was very nice. I told him that the sound was WAY to LOUD for an all acoustic concert and he agreed with me but said the management wanted it that way. I asked him which management, the hall or the artist and he said "BOTH" . We chatty briefly and I went back to my seat. The second half the concert was louder than the first and after about three songs I got up and left. There was NO reason for the sound to be that loud and distorted and after paying quite a bit for the single ticket it was not something that I wanted to have happen. The reviewer in the Cleveland Paper said that he liked the concert but that the sound was "over the top".

Why do these artist let their managers ruin their live concerts by requesting very loud sound??? and why do halls have to get into the picture???? This is not the first acoustic concert I have attended at Blossom and most of them have been way overdone when it comes to SPLs. I believed the sound engineer but maybe he was feeding me a line of crap.

Overly loud sound levels are one major reason I don't go to live concerts anymore. The other MAJOR reason is the ticket prices which are astronomical.

[Fishmed]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

1. Turn down your stage volume. We did a show where the only microphones we had up were the vocal microphones because the band was so LOUD that they did not need any amplification and we could not get the vocals loud enough to even register because of the excessive stage volume. Repeated requests for the band to "turn it down a notch" were not headed and in fact the guitar player turned up his amplifier and his guitar up full to show his displeasure at the request. I cannot balance you if there are no direct boxes and no microphones on the instruments so if the guitar is above everything else there is not much I can do about it back at the audio console.

From my experience, this is my number one also. I have done enough venues where the bands were so inexperienced doing live shows they did not know how to control their volume. If you can't afford your own sound rig and sound man, this is where you need to start. If the room is small and the band is loud, there is nothing the sound man can do to get the vocals loud enough. There is more stage volume going through that vocal mic than the singer.

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

2. Be nice to the person that is doing the show.
10. Communications is the name of the game.

I think these go hand-in-hand. Let him know your concerns up front, but then let him work them out.

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

3. Be on time for the sound check.
9. Don't do a quiet sound check and then blow the roof off the club when you play the set.
10. Communications is the name of the game.
1. Turn down your stage volume.
8. This is not an us and them situation so the more we work together the better the sound and the show will be.

I've done enough shows where I was not able/allowed to get a sound check. If that is ever the case, it may take the sound man a song or two to get the best balance. If the sound man is doing a sound check, listen to his instructions on what he wants you to do or not to do; otherwise, he might give you a shot of feedback to get your FULL attention. Don't argue with him if he tells you to turn your amps down, he is only trying to get the best mix posible for your music.

Last but not least, have a unbiased person with good ears listen to your performance during practice to make sure that your instruments sound good together. I have seen too many times where a guitar player loves the way his rig sounds on its own, but when it is placed in the mix of the rest of the band, it sounds terrible as many of its frequencies are lost in the dynamics. When show time comes, it maybe difficult for the sound man to correct that issue without frustrating the guitarist. If you can't get your sound right during your practices, don't expect miracles during your live performance.

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Almost certainly the sound guys are deaf. They are oblivious to acoustic balance and flat response from the PA, but who do you protest to?

Even as the sound man I have had to sit through the torture of loud bands. Since I have become more serious about studio work, I have quit doing live sound and avoid going to most concerts.

[FarWestWrenchCo]

Originally Posted by jude

to be honest if you pulled that shit at a show i was mixing, id pitch your monitor send down just enough that youd sing out of key the rest of the night.

yes i have done it, yes the band copped loads from their fans and got told not to bother comming back to the venue. all this because they lacked people skills

Now that's unprofessional!

Seriously though, having been on both sides of this over many years, I'd say Thomas' 10 point list is rock solid. The only thing to add would be that if someone else is being a diva/fool/arsehole, you don't actually have to join in

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

2. Be nice to the person that is doing the show. If you treat the sound engineer like S**T that is probably how the show will sound. Practice the golden rule.

10. Communications is the name of the game. The more we communicate the better it is for all concerned. If you and your band mates are going to consume large quantities of booze and then expect to play and make rational judgments it AIN'T going to happen.

Well put. I don't understand why this is not common sense!

[ohmoka]

Originally Posted by DannyL

I'd start with:

3) Certainly NOT last on the list: Bring your own sound person.

Absolutely right! thumbsup

[Michaelrophone]

Originally Posted by Storyville

well, call it unprofessional, call me an ass, whatever, I stop the opening number and ask the audience if the kick drum is loud enough. Apparently, the sound guy didn't believe me when I said it, so maybe the hundred people I brought out saying "no" in unison is enough signal to the sound guy to turn it the hell up. And hopefully enough signal to the promoter to communicate that if the sound guy doesn't get it together those hundred plus people I brought out will not be at the next event.

So, let me make sure I've got this right:

You're only bringing 100 people to the show and you have the audacity to stop mid-set to degrade the soundguy?

I think I've mixed you before. And this is for you-fuuck


In the case that you were simply trying to prove a point and I took your words out of context, then I only have this to say:

If you're playing small bars, don't expect arena sound. If you're good, and you work hard, and most importantly ACT like the professional you claim to be, then maybe one day you'll get to move out of the bars and into a larger venue. Maybe then you'll get the privilege of working with a professional engineer. BUT, you'll have to be bringing more than a 100 guest headcount if you wanna play with the pros.

The bottom line is that bars don't want a top-notch engineer behind the board. They want the guy that will do it for 50 bucks a night. The guy that will do it for 50 bucks a night is rarely as qualified as the groups of amateurs performing that night feel they are entitled to.

If a band is only bringing in a hundred heads, chances are they're not charging more than 10 bucks at the door (otherwise the band would only bring in 10 people). 100 heads times 10 bucks is a mere $1000 a night (of course the "talent" will try to sneak 20 of them in on the "guest list"). This may sound like a lot to the guy who cashed in his student loans to buy a $1000 Stratocaster. But to a bar owner, after paying the light bill, the liquor bill, the heat/AC bill, the bartenders' payroll, the custodian who has to clean up all this nastiness at the end of the night... and then you've got this cocky lead singer who stopped the show mid-set to bitch about the sound and he STILL thinks he's entitled to a paycheck after such foolishness...

Man, if you want to work in this business you have to grow up. Drop the ego; you're not as special as you think you are. Turn your hundreds of fans into tens-of-thousands and hire and pay your own damn soundguy. Until then, you don't really deserve anything better than what the house guy has to offer.

If you can't do your job, which is to shut up and play the &%*@#-ing show, then don't tell anybody else how to do theirs.

[Disjointed]

Thomas W. Bethel .... had a great post (and michaelrophone was good too, he posted while i was typing, or i might have not needed to post!)

i did live sound for about 1.5 years - communication is the key
id get complaints from bands after the show ' i couldnt hear x or y in the monitor' - then why didnt you say something!

also in many cases (small clubs) you cannot blame the sound guy for faulty equipment, most owners want to invest $0 in equipment and upkeep, ive had to mic full bands with a 6 channel mini mixer before...(when the board had a dj spill beer on it the week before)
the bands that arent 'full of themselves' accept this and deal, and do a great show, the ones that think theyre better then jesus will whine and bitch and play like hell because of it.

I you were to yell at me to adjust the main volume, i would turn up your monitors, not touch the mains, and if yo didnt pack the bar that night, youd probably never play there again.
(sry for the rant)

anyway on the flipside...

being a musician i love playing shows, anything from an awesome fully miced and monitored stage, to a single mic for vocals, and no monitor at all ...

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by ohmoka

Absolutely right! thumbsup

As to outside sound people.

You get some of the best and you also get some of the ...... as well. I was providing concert sound for a three sister singing trio (name withheld to protect the guilty) they INFORMED me that they were going to have THEIR sound person mix the show. We had a Soundcraft 500 which is a pretty simple strait forward analog audio console. Their "sound engineer" immediately started complaining that he had all the faders up full and there was no sound coming out of the speakers. I first put up the master fader which was still all the way off. I told him to raise the the input trims to about 2 o'clock and then he would have plenty of level. He could not figure out how to pan the signals (we were running a stereo feed to the mains). The house curve was ruler flat but he started messing around with the 1/3 octave EQ right away when he should have left it alone and used the individual EQs on every channel.

We had an effects rack with some reverb units in it. He wanted to put reverb on the vocal mic and could not figure out how to do it. I told him to set the master aux sends at 2 o'clock, bring up the aux sends on the channels he wanted to use and then use the effects returns to bring the reverberated signals back to the board. He looked at me like I was talking some foreign language. He said "You do it" so I did. He says he wants more reverb on some of the voices and less on others. So I show him how to do that.

During the concert he keeps backing off the mic trims and raising up the faders. After a while he had all the faders full on and the master fader was full open as well. At intermission he told me that I was trying to sabotage him by giving him wrong and misleading information at that the whole system seemed under powered and noisy. One of the sisters came out and gave me a "piece of her mind" and told me that this was her boyfriend and he knew exactly what he was doing (I assumed she meant in bed because he was clueless when it came to concert sound). We finished up the night and the sister again started berating me for not being more cooperative and I just smiled.

Having your own "sound person" is NOT always the best thing to do if that person is not familiar with the sound equipment he is using and has a somewhat warped sense of what he is capable of.

What ever gets you the best sound is what you should use and I agree that many bars pay their sound people in dinner (a hamburger), drinks (two watered down beers) and a couple of bucks and call it even. The bar owner wants to spend zero dollars on the equipment and have zero breakdowns. And people wonder why the house sound guy is pissed off most of the time...

[brianaustinny]

So most of you are saying...
1. Turn down your stage volume.

But to what point? That was probably the biggest reason our sound was screwed up at our last show. At the request of the sound guy we turned down our amps–to the point where they couldn't be heard over the drums. So the only guitar that could be heard on stage was an annoyingly mid-scooped, processed sound coming out of the monitors. The bass guitar was a clickety sound in the 1k range. The vocals were burried under all the other crap coming out of the monitors.

I can understand lowering the stage volume. But isn't it better to let a band that can balance out their sound themselves do so and go from there? I should point out that I'm talking about a 40 watt 2x12 with the master volume at noon, not marshall stack cranked to eleven. Am I totally off base thinking that the amps should be louder than the drums on-stage? Otherwise what's the point, I could save my back and play direct through a pod.

[Fishmed]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

What ever gets you the best sound is what you should use and I agree that many bars pay their sound people in dinner (a hamburger), drinks (two watered down beers) and a couple of bucks and call it even. The bar owner wants to spend zero dollars on the equipment and have zero breakdowns. And people wonder why the house sound guy is pissed off most of the time...

One place where I was doing sound regularly I always drop all the faders becuse the board was availible enough for anyone to mess with at other times, so I start from scratch to do my sound checks. Anyways , they had an act come in to perform and due to lack of communication, they did not tell me they came in the night before to do their own sound check. Needless to say, they were a bit pissed that I zero'ed everything out. They did the same thing to me one more time and that was when I walked out.

I have been to an establishment or two where all they had sound wise was a low-end board and an PA system with just enough power for giving a speach. You might as well put a monkey back there to do the job.

(I need to be posting the stuff in the rant section)

[hbphotoav]

brianaustinny, I mix in small venues through house sound or with my own RCF/JBL kit, and in a 1,000 seat room three or four times a month with a d&b array and IEMs on everyone. The short answer is that no, your guitar amp should NOT be louder than the drums onstage. Nor should the bass rig. If you are playing as a band, and not as a collection of "artistes" each striving to be the alpha male big-dog in the room, you will:

1) Arrive at soundcheck early, warm up, tune your axes, and begin.

2) Find a BLEND of onstage amps with the drums. The ears (soundguy or a band designate) in the house can help with this. Once that basic level is set, THEN start dialing up kick, snare, guitar, etc., to the house and to the wedges. In other words... play like a band.

3) Do all the communication stuff Thomas mentioned, straight and sober, through the end of soundcheck and on into the show. The room tone will change drastically when a small room fills up with bodies. It really (usually... house gear notwithstanding) doesn't have to suck.

4) If you really care about "your" sound, make the investment in gear adequate to your needs and add a sound person to run it. He/she shouldn't be an appendage... he/she should be qualified, committed, and treated as a member of the band. You can always bring in a console and wedges and feed a couple of lines through the house rig to the mains, if there's room. In somebody else's kitchen, with somebody else's toys, he/she should be polite and deferential to the house guy, while working toward your sound. I rarely have issues with house... I show up early, bring good gear, ask a lot of questions before I start patching things (NEVER touch a connector without clearing it with the house guy...), and, usually, make a friend.

If it's a small room where not much reinforcement is needed for the drums and stage amps, run as LITTLE of them through the wedges as possible... keep it vocals and unamplified (DI's acoustic, keys, etc) sources. If you're having trouble hearing your E Gtr amp, move it in front of you and tip it back... or, at least, set it up on a case to get it behind your ears. Your knees and ankles can't hear squat...

And... on a small stage, a loud wedge becomes an off-axis, out-of-phase stage source, as far as the house is concerned. The less running through it, the better the house. Bigger stages in bigger rooms... you have more leeway.

It's never easy... but it also doesn't have to suck.

My $0.02US...

HB

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by brianaustinny

So most of you are saying...
1. Turn down your stage volume.

But to what point? That was probably the biggest reason our sound was screwed up at our last show. At the request of the sound guy we turned down our amps–to the point where they couldn't be heard over the drums. So the only guitar that could be heard on stage was an annoyingly mid-scooped, processed sound coming out of the monitors. The bass guitar was a clickety sound in the 1k range. The vocals were burried under all the other crap coming out of the monitors.

I can understand lowering the stage volume. But isn't it better to let a band that can balance out their sound themselves do so and go from there? I should point out that I'm talking about a 40 watt 2x12 with the master volume at noon, not marshall stack cranked to eleven. Am I totally off base thinking that the amps should be louder than the drums on-stage? Otherwise what's the point, I could save my back and play direct through a pod.

The bands who understand self balance and how to get a good stage level are a pleasure to mix. The problem is when everyone in a band wants to be Mister LOUD and they all want to be the biggest baddest sound on stage. I am talking a stage volume with all the amps cranked of over 110 to 120 dBSPL and then they want me to get the vocals over that and balance them in the house. It AIN'T going to happen. I had one drummer who wanted side fills on both sides of his drum kit and he wanted at least 15" woofers. He wanted to be able to hear himself in all the other racket on stage and he was adding to that racket with his twin LARGE speakers that he was listening to himself in and projecting that mix into the stage "noise". Everyone in the band was nuts when it came to the levels they wanted to hear on stage.

If you cannot hear yourself think on stage or carry on a conversation IT IS TOO DAMM LOUD. PERIOD end of story.

Something like an over all volume of about 84 dBSPL should be all you need. And if everyone keeps their amps low I can do my job much better. I had some words with a guitarist who told me that the only way his rig sounded right to him was everything at 11 and to turn it down would deny him "his sound". It was his ears but his very loud amp drowned out everyone else on stage including the drummer and they had to turn up their rigs/play louder in simple self defense. It was a royal mess.

FWIW and YMMV