Prevent a bad soundman from killing your show

[NorseHorse]

Storyville wasn't wrong. I support it. I'd do it. I have done it. Usually, it's a simple, "Hey, can you hear the vocals?" (folks nod) "OK, the name of this next song is..." I've seen it in plenty of shows I've attended.

I've also had it happen to me. I had an international super-star touring sarod player stop mid-raga to ask for MORE. I was glad he did, cause the audience learned just who was at fault for the sucky-already-blasting sound (which was fine tuned to his taste during our extensive soundcheck). I told him no, and the show went on. In case you're curious, he refused to use the monitor I'd set up, and was attempting to use the entire venue as a resonator / sounding board.

[RMJAZZ]

Asking the audience about your mix is not very smart......do they know more than the sound guy? Maybe at some clubs they do, but dude...you just don't get it. You need to be nice to the sound guy and get him to work WITH you.....not berate him in front of a crowd.....cause if you did that crap to me your show would be over real quick! LOL Especially if your a band that is not yet at the level of being able to hire their own sound engineer..hahahahahaha

**And if the audience is number one..then why don't you get your sound right before the audience gets in the room???????

Originally Posted by Storyville

Then don't **** up the sound.

Let me re-up. The sound guys job is really just to get things heard. It's sound reinforcement. Not studio work. I could care less if the sound guy feels it's unprofessional - as long as my audience is getting what they want. My job is to make them happy - and if the sound isn't working, yes, I will unprofessionally stop the show, get the sound right, and pick up again. The audience is number one, period.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Which goes to the point... if the keys player truly couldn't see into the throat of the horn on his wedge because of a stack of keyboards, he wasn't going to get much but sludge from the woofer, with no clarity. Simply turning it up would lead only to feedback and a really unhappy band... and crowd...

If the sound guy was competent, he'd visit the stage (hopefully, during soundcheck) and be sure the wedges were positioned somewhere close to where they ought to be. Communication both ways, respectful attitudes and a bit of time to get it right are the answer...

No no, read carefully. Not stack of keyboards. One keyboard (and not a full 88 at that).

[cortisol]

Soundpersons vary in quality. Some are equipment operators, some manage the stage aggressively and think that that's the job. Some have blown out hearing and some have gifted ears for a mix balance.

It's a crap shoot when you go with the house soundperson who doesn't know your music. So you end up with a random person who could be anywhere on the scale from great to deaf and unmotivated.

Here are some observations:

The venues PA and the size of the venue and stage will dictate what can be accomplished, from vocal only with no subs - to underpowered subs and badly maintained mics - to adequate power and reasonably well maintained system with standard mics - to high PA with plenty of clean head room, all tuned to the venue by a pro with a good ear or with meters and pink noise and test tones blah blah blah and up!

So most of the bands that sound great everywhere, balance themselves in their rehearsal space using back-line - hint if you practice at more than one rehearsal room and balance yourself to the room you'll be in good sted to balance yourselves on different stages. Universally this sounds great through most systems.

The limitation you will face are generally when you step away from the usual rock band line up. So for example if you've got synths and backing tracks etc and a highly produced sound and you don't have amps on stage to give a clue to the sound person then they will not mix you right. They don't know your music and they are receiving synth sounds from . Expect buried synths and no points of reference in the minds of the soundperson for the proper mix.

So the biggest challenges facing a band trying to get a great sound at a small venue are:

Overloading the room with sound pressure levels above what the PA can provide to balance elements going through the PA.

Being too loud for the audience in small rooms.

Being out of balance on the stage will mean that the areas of the venue that are reinforced by the back-line will sound bad to whole areas of the audience. Usually the people at the front will bear the brunt of a band with the guitar amps up too loud! It's especially bad if it's one guitarist on one side of the stage in a 2 guitar line up with guitars either side of the stage.

So in rehearsal move to where the other players are and listen to the mix balance. If you are a guitarist in a 2 guitar band then try moving to the other guitarists position and listening to hear if the other guitarists amp is at a similar level to your own then move out to the singers position and take a step forward to where the front row at the gig is and try to hear if you are drowning out the drums, and try to balance the sound and not overload the room with sound pressure levels. It's got to be exciting but not deafening or uncomfortable.

When I mix live sound for bands the first thing I listen for is that the vocals are at the right level against the drums especially the snare. So in rehearsals with my band (I'm the drummer in my current band) I try to adjust my playing so that I'm hitting the snare as loudly as I can whilst still being in balance with the vocals and the room. So this means being aware of my stick height or sometimes I go to lighter sticks.

Record your practices and make adjustments to your levels until you have a nice balance of your band happening in the recordings. Use a stereo recorder like a zoom H2 - no multi tracking allowed! It's the balance of your band in the room that counts.

Every now and then we work with in house engineers and for us it is almost always a disaster! LOL There are a lot of venue owners and friends of venue owners doing live sound at small venues. Occasionally you will come across a good mix and a good night helped by their contribution. But then when you go back another time will it be just as good. Mostly the answer is no! LOL But occasionally it's a yes.

When ever possible use your own soundperson (who should be a pro engineer) and gig at venues that you would want to come back too. To repeat successful nights try to use the same engineer at the same venue and repeat the formula to give yourself maximum chance of a great gig.

Do not hire a boyfriend/girl friend or a buddy to be your soundperson. Hire someone whose mixes you have liked at gigs. If they have gotten a good sound all night for a number of bands and you see them again especially at a different venue and they have gotten a great sound again then give them a go with your band and find out what they are like to work with. If they appear to like your music and they are easy to work with and can handle the technical requirements of the job then hire em as much as possible and let them get to know your music. Get them to play good recordings of your band through the system at soundcheck and keep cluing them into the sound you want to create.

My band hires the same 2 guys for our live sound over and over. We communicate well with them and they work for us! They are great at what they do and it's a pleasure to gig when they are on board. I look forward to the gigs when they are manning the desk. I admire their work and they admire ours. They feel every bit a part of our band and have mixed our band longer than some of the players have been members of the band. It feels like they are part of the band and I look forward to seeing them at each gig.

Peace,
cortisol

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by RMJAZZ

Asking the audience about your mix is not very smart......do they know more than the sound guy? Maybe at some clubs they do, but dude...you just don't get it. You need to be nice to the sound guy and get him to work WITH you.....not berate him in front of a crowd.....cause if you did that crap to me your show would be over real quick! LOL Especially if your a band that is not yet at the level of being able to hire their own sound engineer..hahahahahaha

**And if the audience is number one..then why don't you get your sound right before the audience gets in the room???????

They know when there's no sound coming through the mains.

I do "get it" I've been doing it pretty successfully for years. Both as a musician, and as an in-house sound engineer for a number of venues.

Right, I need the sound person to work WITH me, that's a two way street. And berating is a terrible idea - no one should be berated unless they have seriously crossed a line. Again, if I did that to you, chances are my show was already on life support - or I wouldn't do it. I have a tech, but he's not always available, and sometimes it's just not worth the expense. I find it interesting that you laugh at bands that aren't "at the level" of being able to afford a sound guy at every gig. That's pretty cool.

**AND if the sound guy showed up on time, as my band and I did, we would have had a sound check. But he didn't. He showed up too late for a check, and too high to do it properly. Understand that the sound problems beyond any shadow of a doubt were exclusively the result of a poor sound engineer, in this particular case.**

But all of this is things I have said before. That's that whole part about communication, listening to people, etc.

I don't think I made a mistake that night. It wasn't a great move, but the sound was already terrible, it was a last resort. MY MISTAKE WHICH I APOLOGIZE FOR IS RECOMMENDING THIS AS GOOD ADVICE. It's not - my back was up against a wall, I made a quick decision, I executed it well enough that no one felt terribly insulted and the sound got up to being decent, and I got lucky that it wasn't you doing my sound. Because if it was, instead of turning up the level to something audible, you would have just left it inaudible.

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by Storyville

No no, read carefully. Not stack of keyboards. One keyboard (and not a full 88 at that).

Touché... apologies... and the rest of the post stands. Rarely are live sound issues simple or singular. That's all.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Touché... apologies... and the rest of the post stands. Rarely are live sound issues simple or singular. That's all.

Definitely rarely simple or singular. I think what's happening in this thread is that there's a lot of live sound guys who are good at their jobs. Most of the people on this thread are coming from the perspective of doing a great job only to have the band mess things up - which happens all the time. It's simply not conceivable for any decent sound person to do what some of the "sound engineers" I have cited as examples have done. The only time when professionals do that stuff is simply when they make an honest mistake. Which happens, and is totally cool - everyone is late for a gig from time to time - everyone forget that the mute button was on. My keyboard player in my band forgot her keyboard once . It happens. On top of that, I have tried my best not to underplay the role of a good sound person - but perhaps I have focused too much on the negative on this thread. As a gigging musician myself, if you're doing your thing behind the boards - thank you. Thank you for ears, thank you for sticking with it when bands act like assholes toward you (especially if I did..), thanks for showing up on time, thanks for giving a shit.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by Storyville

Definitely rarely simple or singular. I think what's happening in this thread is that there's a lot of live sound guys who are good at their jobs. Most of the people on this thread are coming from the perspective of doing a great job only to have the band mess things up - which happens all the time. It's simply not conceivable for any decent sound person to do what some of the "sound engineers" I have cited as examples have done. The only time when professionals do that stuff is simply when they make an honest mistake. Which happens, and is totally cool - everyone is late for a gig from time to time - everyone forget that the mute button was on. My keyboard player in my band forgot her keyboard once . It happens. On top of that, I have tried my best not to underplay the role of a good sound person - but perhaps I have focused too much on the negative on this thread. As a gigging musician myself, if you're doing your thing behind the boards - thank you. Thank you for ears, thank you for sticking with it when bands act like assholes toward you (especially if I did..), thanks for showing up on time, thanks for giving a shit.

Very nice Storyville, I'm starting to feel all warm and fuzzy............

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by cortisol

Soundpersons vary in quality. Some are equipment operators, some manage the stage aggressively and think that that's the job. Some have blown out hearing and some have gifted ears for a mix balance.


Every now and then we work with in house engineers and for us it is almost always a disaster! LOL There are a lot of venue owners and friends of venue owners doing live sound at small venues. Occasionally you will come across a good mix and a good night helped by their contribution. But then when you go back another time will it be just as good. Mostly the answer is no! LOL But occasionally it's a yes.

When ever possible use your own soundperson (who should be a pro engineer) and gig at venues that you would want to come back too. To repeat successful nights try to use the same engineer at the same venue and repeat the formula to give yourself maximum chance of a great gig.

Do not hire a boyfriend/girl friend or a buddy to be your soundperson. Hire someone whose mixes you have liked at gigs. If they have gotten a good sound all night for a number of bands and you see them again especially at a different venue and they have gotten a great sound again then give them a go with your band and find out what they are like to work with. If they appear to like your music and they are easy to work with and can handle the technical requirements of the job then hire em as much as possible and let them get to know your music. Get them to play good recordings of your band through the system at soundcheck and keep cluing them into the sound you want to create.

My band hires the same 2 guys for our live sound over and over. We communicate well with them and they work for us! They are great at what they do and it's a pleasure to gig when they are on board. I look forward to the gigs when they are manning the desk. I admire their work and they admire ours. They feel every bit a part of our band and have mixed our band longer than some of the players have been members of the band. It feels like they are part of the band and I look forward to seeing them at each gig.

Peace,
cortisol

Since there are no certifications for being a "sound guy" or a "concert sound mixer" or a "FOH Mixer" you have to go with a known quantity and sometimes going to a small club, or even a not so small one, is a very educational experience for all parties.

I have been on the road and seen a lot of really strange setups. In one case we were going to do a show in an outdoor amphitheater. We had talked to the person in charge and told him we were bringing our own sound. He told us that he already had a "state of the art" system and our system would not be needed, When we got to the venue his "state of the art" system was a Shure Vocal Master POS. We told him that we would not play with what he had and needed to setup our own system. He balked and started informing us about all kinds of problems including inadequate power, access to the stage, he did not have a space for the speaker stacks, etc, etc. etc. Then he tells us all the acts that have been to his venue and that they were all more than pleased with what he had. We finally convinced him to let us do our job and got the sound setup, checked out and were ready for sound check when he comes in with his "sound man" who in reality was his brother in law and says that he has to run the system. This person would have had problems turning on a light switch let alone running a complicated sound system. He had never seen a large audio console and knew nothing of speaker processors. We finally had to "convince" the owner to have his "sound man" sit next to our engineer and "coach him". After the concert we got a lot of people coming up to us and telling us that they had been attending concerts at this venue for years and this is the first one where it actually sounded good. So much for the brother in law's Shure Vocal Master setup.

An other time we were doing a gig at a large bar. The owner said that he wanted to use the built in sound setup as it was more convenient and everything was first rate. We got to the venue and were surprised to see some very nice speakers and floor monitors. We looked around for the sound console and could not find one. We asked the manager where the sound console was and he said follow him. We went down into the basement and there was a very small booth with the sound console, a TV monitor and a wall mounted speaker. It was a very good large format console that must have had the room built around it as it was literally wall to wall mounted. The speaker was the kind that you use to have in your home room in junior high for morning announcements and the TV monitor was black and white with a very out of focus picture being displayed. I asked why this set up and the bar's owner said it did not take up a lot of space up in the bar and so it gave him room for a couple of extra tables.

As you can probably imagine the setup was NOT ideal and we had lots of problems but the guy who was the "sound guy" was a pretty darn good engineer and had learned how to make the system sound good by listening to the crappy speaker and watching the monitor. The gig came off OK but it would have been a lot easier and a lot more efficient if we could have all been in the same room.

FWIW...

[jeremyglover]

Originally Posted by Storyville

Then don't **** up the sound.

Let me re-up. The sound guys job is really just to get things heard. It's sound reinforcement. Not studio work. I could care less if the sound guy feels it's unprofessional - as long as my audience is getting what they want. My job is to make them happy - and if the sound isn't working, yes, I will unprofessionally stop the show, get the sound right, and pick up again. The audience is number one, period.

because you can tell how it sounds out front from the stage right?

i'm always amazed at how musicians can do this, they are truly magical people.

[deejfro]

Originally Posted by passivepeter

because you can tell how it sounds out front from the stage right?

i'm always amazed at how musicians can do this, they are truly magical people.

Soooo true, I love it when performers standing 5 feet behind the mains try to tell me what needs to be changed.

Or to "It sounds Echo-y", uhhh, dumbass its called room reflections.

Drummers - If you are in a small club, you dont need to hit like Lars Ulrich.

And If an "artist" does stop and critisize the sound or me, (unless he is the guy paying me) I gaurentee he will get no love from me. All he'll get is a lot of 5k and LOTS of hi hat in his wedge.

[Jay Kahrs]

It seems like there's at least two sides of the tale here. The situation in bars & pubs is usually lo-fi at best. Beat gear and someone running it with just enough knowledge to be dangerous. Not much you can do in those situations aside from playing defense early on to control the damage.

So bars & clubs not withstanding here's some stuff that'll hopefully make life easier to deal with in a hostile live envorinment besides having your own competent engineer at the desk.

1) Have an input list & stage plot ready to go. If its a festival gig, or even a theater... anything, that information gets sent as soon as the booking goes in my calendar. Carry multiple copies with you. Always. Always advance the gig. Always.

2) If you can't afford an engineer to tag along, at least bring your own mics. Vocal mics are a must. If there's something you prefer for a guitar amp or keyboard... snare drum etc. then bring it! Mark the supplied mics on the input list...

3) Be educated. Know when & which battles to pick. If things aren't going well from the start then don't let the situation spiral out of control before speaking up. By the time your on stage its generally too late to do much of anything.

4) Know what you need at a bare minimum and ask for just those things. Sort of ties into the above... In a high pressure/tight time situation whatever you think you need in the monitors, you really don't. Less is more even for the 'house' mix. If the guitarists have 50-100 half-stacks then they don't need to be the in house mix. I've already walked into rooms, looked at the setup & deduced that all we need are vocals & kick drum.

5) This is a big one. Stage volume. Control it. Work at being no louder then the acoustic volume of the drums. About 95% of the time the drums are the loudest thing off the stage so if somethings overpowering them we're gonna have a problem. That problem usually starts with the vocalist not being able to hear themselves... and that all starts back at the rehearsal hall.

6) If you have loud guitar amps (like me!) then don't face 'em out front... point them inwards so they're firing across the stage. You'll hear yourselves better and cut down on the wash that's slamming the house. But don't play any louder then you "really need" to play...

7) If asked to turn down then turn down, but don't turn down so far that you can't hear your own amp! That creates an inverse problem where the drums leak into the guitars & when I turn you up for a solo the snare comes up too. If the volume is already low & you know its too low then don't turn down. Just smile & feign turning the knobs. Sometimes shit just won't make into the house mix even if the room holds 2000 people... like a 100 watt half-stack.

8) By all means if you end up with someone at the console that's truly terrible then complain!!! Don't complain to them, but after the gig bitch to the club owner and the promoter. Tell them that next time you'll be bringing your own engineer or simply won't be back & will tell everyone to avoid their venue. By the way, this usually works better if your management or booking agent is the bad guy!!!

9) If you ARE licked with an idiot at the console then deal with it by asking for the bare-minimums. Don't expect a whole lot if the guy only has enough knowledge to plug in mics & turn 'em up and down.

10) Bring your own audio engineer. Engineers typically have forgotten more then "sound guys" have ever known.

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by passivepeter

because you can tell how it sounds out front from the stage right?

i'm always amazed at how musicians can do this, they are truly magical people.

Well, it helps when you get to sit through the opening act having abysmal sound. And honestly, even if not, you can tell when barely anything is coming from the mains even on stage (especially if you're relatively close to them).

Yes, I suppose that hearing FOH sound from the stage is the equivalent to posting a response to someone without having read the whole of their postings.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by Storyville

Yes, I suppose that hearing FOH sound from the stage is the equivalent to posting a response to someone without having read the whole of their postings.

I don't know... quite a few artists, during the sound check have asked me to turn off the mains so all they hear is monitors & stage sound. I've also been on the other end of it as a player... being on stage & the person at the console has me up so loud that the slap from the backwall becomes a distraction.

[kooz]

Originally Posted by FarWestWrenchCo

Now that's unprofessional!

Seriously though, having been on both sides of this over many years, I'd say Thomas' 10 point list is rock solid. The only thing to add would be that if someone else is being a diva/fool/arsehole, you don't actually have to join in

back slowly away and let them have the spotlight, exactly the best way to deal with them. someone more important will call the offender on their behaviour. It's exactly as Thomas said, it's not an us vs them situation. you're performing the show together.

[7rojo7]

On small gigs I've had the best results with a Vocal amp and a mono Oh kik setup. The vocal amp serves as a monitor and is situated like a gtr amp mono feed 2 speakers. If anyone remembers the old Tapco 'boards' 6 channels, 4 for vox, 2 for drums, you get the idea. If you don't need 4 vox, 1 can go for bass mic. Gtr's if pointed in the right direction... one can do wonders like this
Larger?
If the house system is shit it don't matter, I've never heard anyone say, turn the gtrs up. normally it's the vox that suffer and the presence of the drums and bass. Every sit has its own thing to resolve
If a band is used to rehearsing in a garage, the extra bedroom, basement, they're used to rehearsing with close returns, a stage can present problems that the group is not used to. This should not be the soundguy's problem but it most often is.
I've run into the problem (I have to preface this that I was playing drums in a Jazz accordeon trio with electric bass, music by Zappa) that the owner operator of the system didn't want to put the kik in the PA because he was afraid to blow his speakers. I had the bassist thump the kik and set it my self, after I put a piece of tape over all the channels and told them not to touch anything or I'd see them later with a pair of line pliers and a drywall knife.

[radlid]

Originally Posted by brianaustinny

This post is about ways to prevent a bad soundman from killing your show.

Why? Because it happens so often. And IMO it's killing local live music. As a musician until you reach a certain level you have to deal with clubs and soundmen that have no idea what they are doing. It's bad for the fans and bad for the band.

Any advice, tips, techniques, gear that can help with the problem? Is there anything that has really made a difference?

Hey,
interesting thread!
Here is my guide to dealing with the soundguy.

For starters,
I have to say that I both agree & disagree with you.
Bad soundguys is not what's killing local live music scene.
It's the terrible, terrible local live music out there that is killing the scene. The lack of originality and songwriting skills, it's all about the "sound" I guess.
That along with the raising of prices for drinks & cover charge.

Are there a lot of crappy soundguys? Oh yes a ton of 'em of course.
You have no idea how people just get thrown into those situtions. It's also a place to cut corners for the club owner (in their opinions).

Blown wedges, intermittent snakes & cables, cheap dusty old consoles with only 3 band eq's. All because of artists that abuse and owners that skimp on quality.

My suggestion to you and others(I'm not about to attack you here this is just in general) is to learn about sound and by that I mean "live" sound. Because it's a huge difference from sitting at home with a mbox. The more you can learn the better. That way you can help him out or suggest things(and do so in a humble & professional manner). You have be able to communicate. Remember you're in his office. You don't go into just anybodies office and tell them how to do things.

And as someone suggested earlier get a hold of the soundguy & pay him 25 bucks or something and have him come in an hour early for a soundcheck.
You have to realize, you and everyone else come there to enjoy themselves. He's there to work.

Also don't go into a club thinking it's a playground be mature, professional and prepared.

In regards to gear, call ahead and ask. ALWAYS bring your own vocal mics. As suggested earlier keyboard amps are good to bring. Use the house kit if you have to (make it easy on the soundguy and he'll be good to you). Bring a D.I. just in case and ask if you should use your own or his.

Call/email the club or talk to owner and let him know that the club sound system is in need of a face lift.

The most important thing, whether you agree or not;
DO NOT PISS OFF THE SOUND GUY!

Again this has nothing to do with you as an individual. It's all just general suggestions.

EDIT: make sure it's ok to put your stuff on the stage before you do don't just assume.