Valve Mic Pre-Amps for Classical Music - Highjack

[boojum]

Guys, I am not involved enough to go out and buy tube pre-amps for what I do. I just cannot justify it. I probably could not justify what I have bought already if pressed,

My question is what can I do in post to sweeten the sound a bit to give it the tube sound? I am running SAM 10 and 11. Do they have built-in plugins which would do this well? Or, is there a good after market plugin to do the job,

As always, any help from you guys who know this stuff is welcomed.

Thank you.

[jnorman]

hiya booj - i have tried many many preamp emulation plugins, API, neve, tube pres of several varieties, etc, and they all pretty much suck for non-rock/pop applications.

OTOH, real analog preamps can indeed make a difference in your sound, depending on their individual topology. back when i was testing and buying outboard preamps, i tried out lots of pres, from RNP, sytek, symmetrix, millennia media, grace, GR, vintech, demeter, and others, as well as a few vintage items like some old altec tube pres, and a pair of pres lifted from a 2-track scully.

while most newer solid state preamps sounded very similar regardless of price, and even most of the tube preamps were generally just very nice clean preamps with little coloration, i found a few which alternately seemed to be a bit brighter (like the grace), or a bit low-mid forward (like GR and the old altecs, a little bit so for the demeter) - good or not depending on which mics you coupled them with. the tube pres were not, in toto, too different sounding from decent SS pres, though the vintage ones were a tad noisier than the newer demeter.

but the real noticeably different sounding pres (to me) seemed to be the ones with lots of iron in the signal path, like the neve clones. of all the pres i tested, the vintech 1272 colored the sound the most with a rather punchy low mid, and a definite smooth-ish top end de-emphasis. from more recent reading, i do not know if the sound was truly affected by the transformers as much as i thought it was, and may have more to do with the general amp topology. i think i read that the old neve 1272 was never even designed to be a regular mic preamp, and was originally intended for more mundane duties like talkback (someone please correct me if this is wrong).

with ribbon mics and dynamics, i found the high end SS pres like the HV3 and grace really shined, but lower end condenser mics which inherently exhibited a top end hype (rode NTK, SP C1s, neumann tlm103s, etc) were not flattered by these pres. flat mics like the cmc64s and dpa 4011s were very clean, transparent, and open with the HV3s (which i ultimately bought at the time).

when it came to mics like the neumann km184s, akg c481s, dpa 4061s (i had a wierd unique pair of 4061s that bruce myer had modified for stand mounting that i should never have sold), i found the vintech 1272 to be a simply wonderful match, where the transformers seemed to have a very pleasing effect on the somewhat strident sound that some of those mics exhibit when used at closer distances or when used directly on axis (i was using a spaced cardioid config a lot back then). so, while i finally bought the HV3s to go with my schoeps and DPAs, i wish i could have also bought a nice neve clone like the vintech, BAE, etc, to go with some of my other mics. and now that my main mics are km140s, i have been seriously looking at the 1073 and 1272 clones again. the GAP pre73 and chameleon labs 7602 have gotten some notice as very affordable and good sounding neve clones, but i have not heard either.

if you want to hear some serious testing of a wide variety of preamps in studio conditions, try out lynn fuston's 3D Pre CD - very informative.

[boojum]

Jim,

it sounds like if I get the right pre-amp it will sound good, otherwise it will be about like the plug-in or worse. Is that about right? I have seen pages of pre-amp discussion here and no real conclusion other that, "I like the one I have" and not everyone has the same one. Not much help there. And if they are so subject to personal taste, why buy one at all? I would probably be as well off with the SD built-ins.

It just get curiouser and curiouser. Is there a definitive answer? Or has your post summed the situation?

This pinhead wants to know.

[Celloman]

The reason that there are so many opinions about mic/pre combinations is just as much in the application as it is in the subjective preference. One engineer tests a mic pre in his living room and says brand X is sterile and cold, while the other engineer tests the pre in a sumptuous sounding concert hall and says brand x is magical. Opinions on a forum are never enough to be definitive due to all the variables involved, including the venue, the performers, the desired result, and recording techniques employed. The best advice will likely come from someone whose recordings you respect and love and whose philosophy of recording and desired end result you share.

Nevertheless.. I enjoy "gear-slutting" and listening to everyone's opinions!

My 2 cents

Mike

Originally Posted by boojum

Jim,

it sounds like if I get the right pre-amp it will sound good, otherwise it will be about like the plug-in or worse. Is that about right? I have seen pages of pre-amp discussion here and no real conclusion other that, "I like the one I have" and not everyone has the same one. Not much help there. And if they are so sunbject to personal taste, why buy one at all? I would probably be as well off with the SD built-ins.

It just get curiouser and curiouser. Is there a definitive answer? Or has your post summed the situation?

This pinhead wants to know.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by Celloman

<snip>

Nevertheless.. I enjoy "gear-slutting" and listening to everyone's opinions!

My 2 cents

Mike

Well said! I'll subscribe to that. I think I am asking the impossible: an ultimate answer. Which is like an ultimate mic or and ultimate array. I most likely will be just as well off with what I have inside the SD's. At my age I do not expect to be winning any awards or prizes. I am doing this as an amateur, in the pure sense of the word. I love what I am doing.

If anyone can apply a definitive answer I'd love to hear it, though. I am always looking for more info that is reliable. Or, unreliable, as the matter may be.

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by boojum

Well said! I'll subscribe to that. I think I am asking the impossible: an ultimate answer. Which is like an ultimate mic or and ultimate array. I most likely will be just as well off with what I have inside the SD's. At my age I do not expect to be winning any awards or prizes. I am doing this as an amateur, in the pure sense of the word. I love what I am doing.

If anyone can apply a definitive answer I'd love to hear it, though. I am always looking for more info that is reliable. Or, unreliable, as the matter may be.

There are lots of plug ins that do saturation and harmonic enhancement. Check kvraudio.com plugin database. even some of the free ones are useful.
Another thing you might try is running your signal thru some old transformers. You would need 150-150 for mic level or 600-600 for line level.

[boojum]

Steve, what I would like is something to give it the "tube sound" so that I can make a CD with it and a CD without and compare the two in an ABX test so I can determine if I think it "sounds better" as "analog."


KVRAUDIO has some stuff, free, that I can get my feet wet with. I started off with tube stuff, there was no transistor stuff in '54 and am curious what the emulators will sound like now.

Thanks.

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by boojum

Steve, what I would like is something to give it the "tube sound" so that I can make a CD with it and a CD without and compare the two in an ABX test so I can determine if I think it "sounds better" as "analog."


KVRAUDIO has some stuff, free, that I can get my feet wet with. I started off with tube stuff, there was no transistor stuff in '54 and am curious what the emulators will sound like now.

Thanks.

I started with tube stuff too. My family room amp still is an Eico HF81 circa 1959. Sweeeet!
Voxengo has a free tube plug in. Other good ones are PSP Vintage WEarmer and Nomad Factory Tube plugins.

[boojum]

Steve, I built the 20 watt Eico tube amp back around '56. Later I built the tuner with the exclamation mark tuning indicator. The last stuff I built was a hafler DH500K, the DH110 pre-amp and the DH?? tuner. I still have them, plus another DH500, both mono-bridged. Good sound, rock solid.

Thanks for the pointer on plugin. And now, to the Internet . . . . .

[3rd&4thT]

Give a trial to the Waves V-Series.

The VEQ3 is a bit thicker and the VEQ4 less so. Both are very evocative of the venerated classical reference recordings we grew up on. If the VEQ3 is too closed at the top for you, a little air boost will make all well again.

Very much worth your time.

Cheers,
3rd&4thT

[boojum]

I will check them when I am ready to mix something I need them for. They have a seven day demo life so I want to be able to use it, all of it. Thanks for the lead. ;o)

[MichaelPatrick]

If you can use outboard options, here are a few...

LaChapell 583s tube pres work really well with classical / acoustic music. They are fast and warming.

In post a Pendulum OCL-2 with little or no compression does the trick. It does, I think, you're asking for.

For brightening with odd harmonics a little bit of the Pentode knob on a HEDD 192 AD works well, and the tape emulation in small measure is also a nice way to dial in some iron with a gentle downward compression of upper mids and HFs.

[boojum]

MP - I just cannot justify the necessary outlay for the tube equipment. Anyway, I would like to fiddle around with the plug-ins to get an idea of what can be done. Just as an experiment. What I have plugged in so far has done nothing that really thrills me. I will keep tinkering to see what is possible. It is all part of the fun for me. And there is the outside chance I can craft a finer product, too.

Cheers. And pls send me some sunshine. At night I am back in SC county: I dream of it. In the day I mold. LOL