Brass Band recording using Nagra LB & DPA4060

[Gaston69]

I would like to get your comments on my recording as this is the first Brass band recording I did in my career.



Gaston

[Karl Jackson]

Sounds pretty good to me. The only comments I would have, and this reflects my own subjective bias, would be to prefer a slightly more distant sound with a less extreme stereo image. Reducing the spacing or (my preference) changing to a spaced cardioid setup would help bring up the center of the image and lessen the predominance of the extreme edges. Moving slightly further away and slightly higher with the mics will help even out the slight imbalance between the front and the back of the ensemble. I've attached a short excerpt from the incomparable Brass of the Royal Concertgebouw that illustrates my preferences better than words can.

[Gaston69]

Originally Posted by Karl Jackson

Sounds pretty good to me. The only comments I would have, and this reflects my own subjective bias, would be to prefer a slightly more distant sound with a less extreme stereo image. Reducing the spacing or (my preference) changing to a spaced cardioid setup would help bring up the center of the image and lessen the predominance of the extreme edges. Moving slightly further away and slightly higher with the mics will help even out the slight imbalance between the front and the back of the ensemble. I've attached a short excerpt from the incomparable Brass of the Royal Concertgebouw that illustrates my preferences better than words can.

Hi Karl,

Thanks for your opinion, I liked your sample a lot and reminds me of Onno Scholtze's recording, he recorded a lot at the concertgebouw. Can you confirm if he recorded this if not I will visit him next week?

Cheers.

[rumleymusic]

Perhaps moving the mics up and back would help the front back balance a little. I had no problem with the stereo image, and thought the distance of the concertgebouw recording actually deadened the dynamics quite a bit. Spaced omnis usually have a much better L/R image than cardioids, which usually serve to separate the chanels further. But I am not sure what cardioid setup you are using.

[Karl Jackson]

Hi,

It's probable that this was recorded by Polyhymnia since they are involved with the label, RCO Live. I'd be curious to know, though.

Best,

kj

[boojum]

Gaston, you making me mad! LOL Great recording. I am constantly amazed at just how good the 406n series is. It is a beautiful recording. Good musicians, good space, good mic'ing and gear. Winner, winner, chicken dinner! I do agree with the other fellows that a little more distance would make it even better. However, if I had made that recording I would not be ashamed to put my name on it. Well done. thumbsup

[didier.brest]

Nice recording despite it's too wide for me too. It makes the sound much demonstrative but also not so comfortable for long listening.

My proposal for mastering:

[amfortas2006]

Carmen childrens choir thumbsup

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

Nice recording despite it's too wide for me too. It makes the sound much demonstrative but also not so comfortable for long listening.

My proposal for mastering:

Désolé Didier,
but I much prefer the original !
More alive, no more real instrument sound. I like it, even if the stereo image is a little too wide.
Ok, the music is not perfect, but the sound is there.
Bravo Gaston

[didier.brest]

Don't be désolé: to each his own.

[Nobilmente]

Hi Gaston

I wonder if you had any input into the seating of the players. I think the width is ok for me, but I might have put the tuba central to the ensemble, and filled out the centre a bit. You didn't did you? It was live?

I know there is a tradition of bass right in the orchestra, but with brass ensemble it seems to work well in the centre.

I don't think I would have moved far back as you would have lost the immediacy of the sound, and there is a fair amount of reverberation (is that from the hall?). Perhaps upwards a little away from the front player and directed downward slightly toward the tuba at the back.

Seating the central instuments a little further forward would help too as it would give their sound more presence and make them feel like they were in the group more.

I agree that spaced cardiods would have been good, perhaps flanked by a pair of omnis to add the usual.

I record a lot of brass bands, the British style, so this for me would be a brass ensemble. One of the nice things about your recording is the lack of tizz and spitting you can get from condensors.

Only my thoughts though.

[Nobilmente]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

Nice recording despite it's too wide for me too. It makes the sound much demonstrative but also not so comfortable for long listening.

My proposal for mastering:

This mastering does improve the situation of balance doesn't it?

[Nobilmente]

Originally Posted by Karl Jackson

Sounds pretty good to me. The only comments I would have, and this reflects my own subjective bias, would be to prefer a slightly more distant sound with a less extreme stereo image. Reducing the spacing or (my preference) changing to a spaced cardioid setup would help bring up the center of the image and lessen the predominance of the extreme edges. Moving slightly further away and slightly higher with the mics will help even out the slight imbalance between the front and the back of the ensemble. I've attached a short excerpt from the incomparable Brass of the Royal Concertgebouw that illustrates my preferences better than words can.

This seems to be just about as wide as Gaston's recording, but with the centre instruments stronger.

The imaging in this does not sound quite precise enough for me. I find space omnis with high trumpets can cause a bit of embarrassment as they can come over on the far mike and wander across the image when they go higher at volume. I think they need cardiods or fig8 to anchor them to their seats!!

[Hornblower64]

Gastons recording sounds much more real than the Concertgebouw Brass clip, which is murky and has an unnatural sheen to it (note: this is not a comment on the performances.) And having been a trumpet player for many decades, I do know what real live brass instruments sound like. Well done Gaston!

BTW, I have a Nagra VI; wonderful machines. In it I finally found a digital recorder that doesn't make me miss my Studers (my back certainly doesn't miss them.)

[Kees de Visser]

Originally Posted by Hornblower64

Gastons recording sounds much more real than the Concertgebouw Brass clip, which is murky and has an unnatural sheen to it.

I completely agree about the recordings and the excellent performance by the RCO brass.
The DPA 4060 is also one of my favorites for its natural representation of the hall's acoustics.

Originally Posted by Hornblower64

having been a trumpet player for many decades, I do know what real live brass instruments sound like.

Are your ears still up to spec then ?
My ears often hurt when I'm in front of a playing trumpet (group). It's probably much better at the other side of the instrument.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by Kees de Visser

The DPA 4060 is also one of my favorites for its natural representation of the hall's acoustics.

What are the other ones ?

[Roland]

Hi Gaston, I very much liked the recording. I don't have a problem with the width, often the way that brass bands sit has a significant effect on the sound and (IMHO) makes them slightly difficult to record. The Concertgebouw Brass recording has the advantage of top, professional level players, probably a better seating plan, and (if recorded in the Concertgebouw Hall) one of the finest acoustics available, though I personally prefer the more "naturalistic" sound of Gastons recording. Maybe a fraction more distance might have helped, it may on the other hand have dulled the sound and the dynamics so it's a very subjective shout.

Regards


Roland

[Nobilmente]

Are your ears still up to spec then ?
My ears often hurt when I'm in front of a playing trumpet (group). It's probably much better at the other side of the instrument.

Some people have very good hearing, but do not hear simply because they're not listening for the right things. I'd like to bet that as a musician he has his ears tuned to the "right" things!

It's more likely to be the people seated in front of him that are now having the problems with hearing. I have to say, that I've been a pro trombone player for forty years, a large portion of that spent in big bands or the like, where I've been seated in front of a row of trumpet bells, and it isn't pretty at times! Particularly if it's not in tune.

This is meant to be humorous (but still true) just in case it's taken the wrong way by a trumpeter!

[guosh]

Sounds great Gaston! Personally I'm loving the sound of the 4060s - amazing how great things come in small packages.

However, my personal preference would be for a slightly more distant sound as it does sound a little too close... probably a little more height would do the trick too, as suggested by Nobilmente because I feel that the blend of the ensemble tends to be lost if it's too close.

I recently did a rehearsal recording of my brass quintet in a small room, and while it's not exactly the best example (small room + budget equipment), at least it's an indicator of my personal preferences in terms of sound so you can decide if what I mentioned in the preceding paragraph is worth trying!

Originally Posted by Nobilmente

Some people have very good hearing, but do not hear simply because they're not listening for the right things. I'd like to bet that as a musician he has his ears tuned to the "right" things!

It's more likely to be the people seated in front of him that are now having the problems with hearing. I have to say, that I've been a pro trombone player for forty years, a large portion of that spent in big bands or the like, where I've been seated in front of a row of trumpet bells, and it isn't pretty at times! Particularly if it's not in tune.

This is meant to be humorous (but still true) just in case it's taken the wrong way by a trumpeter!

That's why it's always healthier to play louder than everyone else!
....


but seriously, I do see your point. I went for a masterclass by Philip Smith at the local conservatory a few months back and sat in the front row. My eardrums were shaking within and giving me a headache as he played Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition!

Cheers,
Guosh

[newyorkbrass]

thumbsup
Awesome!

Maybe a little high frequency EQ that is picking up the reed noise.