PA system for a middle sized church

[Icarus]

Hello guys,

My mom is doing a concert in a church this week, and she has decided to go amplified for it, so I've been charged with looking into getting a PA system. This could work out for me too, since I could make use of a PA for my own music.

I'm looking for something that would be adequate for small to medium sized venues (say like a backyard, and then up to the size of a smaller club).

I like JBL, so I was thinking something like the eon 510 or 515. I will be picking up a PA by friday at the latest, so if I could get some feedback, I would be majorly appreciative.

Thanks for your time!



T

[jjb]

Do you need the whole works (ie speakers, mixer, mics, cables, stands) or do you already have some of the gear?

Any more info you can provide on what you're looking for will help. Things like how many channels, what sort of sources you want to plug in, and even the style of music being played would all be helpful. Budget info would be great too.

[AV_Dub]

Our youth hall seats around 200 and has the eon powered speakers w/powered subs. Outstanding for even a larger venue. We've used them in the main sanctuary that has a balcony. we mount the main speakers on stands about 5ft up, and the subs sit on the floor below them. They make plenty of sound.

Great clarity and bass.

I'll try to get our specs for you tomorrow.

[Icarus]

Yeah, sorry. We mostly need speakers, and I think it will primarily be voice and piano for my mom, and voice and guitar for me. Really two channels is all I need. The JBL Eons dont need a mixer, but I wouldn't be against picking up a little 8 channel or something. The most channels I'd possibly need would be 4.

Mics I have are the Neumann Kms105, and the Shure KSM9, so we're good for mics, cables, and stands. Budget is a non-issue. I'm looking for the best of the best powered speakers for small to mid sized venues (I realize there will likely be several viable options).

I hope that is enough information. Thanks.

EDIT: @AV Dub - that would be excellent. Are you using the 510s or the 515s, and what subs are you using if you don't mind me asking?

[Dubai]

some Electrovoice have much better highs than JBL.
dh3
dh2010a
dh2005

also you need Graphic Equalizers to minimize feedback.
a decent reverb.
good cables.
etc...

Originally Posted by Icarus

Hello guys,
I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask about PAs, but I will give it a shot.

My mom is doing a concert in a church this week, and she has decided to go amplified for it, so I've been charged with looking into getting a PA system. This could work out for me too, since I could make use of a PA for my own music.

I'm looking for something that would be adequate for small to medium sized venues (say like a backyard, and then up to the size of a smaller club).

I like JBL, so I was thinking something like the eon 510 or 515. I will be picking up a PA by friday at the latest, so if I could get some feedback, I would be majorly appreciative.

Thanks for your time!



T

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Budget is a non-issue. I'm looking for the best of the best powered speakers for small to mid sized venues.

Well, since you have infinite money... Check out the Meyer UPA-1P, JBL VRX powered version, QSC K12, I'll think of more.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Well, since you have infinite money... Check out the Meyer UPA-1P, JBL VRX powered version, QSC K12, I'll think of more.

That QSC K12 seems really nice.

[AV_Dub]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Yeah, sorry. We mostly need speakers, and I think it will primarily be voice and piano for my mom, and voice and guitar for me. Really two channels is all I need. The JBL Eons dont need a mixer, but I wouldn't be against picking up a little 8 channel or something. The most channels I'd possibly need would be 4.

Mics I have are the Neumann Kms105, and the Shure KSM9, so we're good for mics, cables, and stands. Budget is a non-issue. I'm looking for the best of the best powered speakers for small to mid sized venues (I realize there will likely be several viable options).

I hope that is enough information. Thanks.

EDIT: @AV Dub - that would be excellent. Are you using the 510s or the 515s, and what subs are you using if you don't mind me asking?

We use the eon 515 and eon 518s subs. They are powered and use balanced mic type cable inputs. Plug your mixboard output or a single microphone into the eon 518s and there is an output to the 515 w/crossover switch right on back of the 518s.

Couldn't be easier. I think they're a great package.

here's a link to both JBL :: Product Family Just scroll down when you get there.

[ghellquist]

Some random notes.

For voice + acoustic guitar there is no need for subs. In many rooms they will mostly create problems instead. I would go for 12" or even 10" speakers. The larger 15" 2 way boxes often are weak in the critical mid range used for voice. If you somehow need the bass, add that from a sub and go with the 12".

In my mind the plastic JBL-s are OK but not top of the market in any way. In that segment I like the RCF boxes better, especially the ones with the 2" horn as this projects voices really, really well. You might be pressed to find them at your area though. And there is quite a few to choose from if you go next step up in quality and price. Often in weight then as well. Should not be needed though.

Be sure to put the speakers up on stands.

The KMS105 needs phantom power so cannot connect that directly to any of the powered speakers talked about here. Needs a power source somehow, suggest a small mixer.

// Gunnar

[Icarus]

Alright. For singer songwriter needs (guitar + voice) would an 8 channel mixer be enough or too much?

[AV_Dub]

If you plan to play contemporary Christian music from cd's, DVD's, or if the future holds more than just piano/guitar and voice you should consider subs. I would start out with 512's (or what ever) on stands, and the matching subs either now or later. The 512's and subs handle our youth band with Full drum kit mic'ed, 2 synths, bass, elect guitar, acoustic guitar and 5 singers with no problem.

If your setting up the Church with something and there is a budget for a decent system, getting a little more than what's adequate will help you later!

imho

I would consider our main sanctuary a "Mid sized Church" and we run a 48 channel soundcraft board and an 5000w Audion driven- flown JBL system W/floor subs.

Just sayin, don't limit your options!

[AV_Dub]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Alright. For singer songwriter needs (guitar + voice) would an 8 channel mixer be enough or too much?

Go with 8 channels, or maybe a portable 16. You'd be surprised how quickly channels get used. CD=2 DVD=2 powerpoint=2 mediashout=2. and of course piano, voice, and guitar are 3 more. You never know when some musicians will turn up in the congregation..

[Icarus]

Alright, thanks!

I actually don't intend to play any worship music (not that I have anything against it). I'm mainly concerned about church acoustics because my mom would be using it for her music (and it's in a church).

I'd like to get some subs, but I think for now I should be fine with tops and a monitor. Or are the 512s and subs the monitors for your youth band on top of the FOH? Sorry, it's late and I'm not processing information efficiently.

I guess I'll look at getting a 16 channel mixer. Man, performing music can be pricy.

[AlexK]

I would very strongly recommend the QSC K-series, particulalrythe K-12. I've gigged with them (plus the sub) and have a friend who owns them, and they sound fantastic, weigh next to nothing, and are well-featured. They're also capable of very high volumes (much higher than the JBLs).

The only downside to the K-12 comes in the form of the off-centre stand hat, which means the speaker sometimes sits a little lop-sided on the top of the stand. The K-8 and K-10 don't suffer from this though (and both are still excellent speakers).

Whatever you do, DON'T go the Mackie route - that will only end in pain.

[locutus]

That's odd. I would specifically not recommend the QSC K series, but the previous HPR series. The K series is lighter and cheaper (barely), and claims higher power if you believe the specs, but has cheaper components, a cheaper RMX series amp, only one amp channel with passive crossover (not biamped), plastic cabinets (resonance), and a smaller HF driver. The HPR 1221i by contrast is biamped, has a full-sized HF driver, real wood cabinets, and simply sound better. I have used them in a wide variety of settings from small acoustic room to outdoors as high-packs on top of sub stacks. They are certainly not the be-all and end-all, but a decent set of useful speakers, and very versatile for many purposes.

If you want to go even better, there is of course Renkus-Heinz, Meyer, Danley, etc.

[bishopthomas]

Sorry, I thought the K series was supposed to be a step up from the HPR's. I have used the HPR's a little and like them for what they are. I would definitely recommend them in this situation.

[mixedupsteve]

I personally like EVs and have 2 sx 300s. They sound great on acoustic stuff.
You might consider just 1 sub, I mix in a club that has 3 installation type flown EVs (it's a wide room) and 1 RCF sub. It really sounds nice in there.

I would also get a Driverack for speaker processing. They make them for powered speakers now also.

You'll need a couple small monitors too.

Alex, The QSCs have an adjustable tilt feature which allows you to place them up high and tilt them downwards a little. If that isn't required then just turn it back to 0 deg. and you'll be good.

[Dave Ferris]

I like my EV SXA360s. They are the 12" two ways. I'm pretty picky about the sound of my digital piano and voice (I use the Nuemann KMS-105 as well). These sound less harsh to my ears than the comparable JBLs or Mackies. On poles they can cover a fairly large room surprisingly well. Can't say I've tried the new QCS K series but everyone that has a pair really seems to dig them.

Another thing about the 360s--EV discontinued them as of Jan. 1 so you might be able to find a pair on closeout. They are going to be replaced by a 12" 2 way box comparable or better in the ZXA line sometime around May or June I was told by the EV rep at NAMM. If you need the 15", I'd check out the EV ZXA5 as well. Great sounding speaker at that price point and it's only 50 lbs. for the 15" box.

Personally I have my eyes (and ears) on maybe three of these little guys. Smaller is better for me these days. Two on poles and one for my wedge. They're brand new, I also saw them at NAMM. They were certainly light and the price was right.
Hands–On Review: Electro-Voice ZXA1 Powered Speaker | Musician's Friend

[Dave Ferris]

Speaking of smaller is better--this caught my attention at NAMM too.

News - NAMM 2010: Allen & Heath ZED 10FX (Video)
Allen & Heath | ZED-10 Multi-Purpose Miniature Mixer | ZED-10

I do Jazz, move around a lot, been schlepping this stuff around for over 40 years, so I'm looking for the most compact, natural sounding system without having to spend the big $$s on L-Acoustics or Meyer.

[AV_Dub]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Alright, thanks!

I actually don't intend to play any worship music (not that I have anything against it). I'm mainly concerned about church acoustics because my mom would be using it for her music (and it's in a church).

I'd like to get some subs, but I think for now I should be fine with tops and a monitor. Or are the 512s and subs the monitors for your youth band on top of the FOH? Sorry, it's late and I'm not processing information efficiently.

I guess I'll look at getting a 16 channel mixer. Man, performing music can be pricy.

The eons are FOH in the youth building. ( their hall is about 80' wide X 100' deep X 16' ceiling ) they use standard amplified floor monitors and an 8 bus 32 or 36 channel mackie board.

If your never going to do more than vocals and maybe a couple instruments i'd take some of the other advice here. smaller will get the job done for you.

Churches generally have lots of carpet and padded seating = a very dry sound. If you can, at least get a small board that has effects built in reverb/effects, a graphic eq, and aux sends for a monitor. I think i've seen 16 channel mix boards like that for under $250 ?

doing a search for MIXER at zzounds.com or musiciansfriend.com will show you pretty much every mixer available.

[AlexK]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

I personally like EVs and have 2 sx 300s. They sound great on acoustic stuff.
You might consider just 1 sub, I mix in a club that has 3 installation type flown EVs (it's a wide room) and 1 RCF sub. It really sounds nice in there.

I would also get a Driverack for speaker processing. They make them for powered speakers now also.

You'll need a couple small monitors too.

Alex, The QSCs have an adjustable tilt feature which allows you to place them up high and tilt them downwards a little. If that isn't required then just turn it back to 0 deg. and you'll be good.

The tilt-feature I know about, it's that the had is actually off-centre on the K12 (whilst it's central on the K8 and K10).

RE the QSCs vs the SX300s, I'd choose the QSCs any day. The SX300 has always been one of my pet-hates when it comes to PA - incredibly sibilant, no top-end bite to them, they fire HF all over the place (poor dispersion control) and they really seem to lack punch in comparison to other similar speakers...

Not a fan personally, but it's definitely much better to make your own mind up

[matthewd]

Hi

I've been coerced into doing a fair bit of live sound lately which is not really by bag but have had the chance to try a few things. My view is that it is sometimes better to hire ultra high quality boxes such as D&B Audiotechnik and that in fact the types of places that have masses of this kind of thing available for hire are rarely any more expensive than the more provincial small DJ focussed hire outfits. I haven't fully grasped the repertoire but it no substantial bass is required something like a pair of E8s with a D6 or D12 amp might be enough on its own. Otherwise, the arrangement whereby the sub has a pole on which to mount the tops can work quite nicely. I'd describe the sound as hi fi quality and much less harsh that you would get from the 12 inch active boxes out there. If the acoustic is a bit challenging in being over reverberant, you could try a larger number of E3s run at lower level dotted around. The other thing that makes a huge difference is the mics - if it is vocal, it might be worth looking at the DPA 4066 headsets which can go with most wireless bodypacks given the right adapter, giving exceptional sound and gain before feedback performance whilst giving the performer plenty of movement.

Matt

[USpirit]

Bose L1

check out their forum for user feedback.
I've been using one for 5 years with nothing but good comments on the sound.

There is a 45 day money back, no questions trial period.

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris

Speaking of smaller is better--this caught my attention at NAMM too.

News - NAMM 2010: Allen & Heath ZED 10FX (Video)
Allen & Heath | ZED-10 Multi-Purpose Miniature Mixer | ZED-10

I do Jazz, move around a lot, been schlepping this stuff around for over 40 years, so I'm looking for the most compact, natural sounding system without having to spend the big $$s on L-Acoustics or Meyer.

Check out the Zed 12FX , it has faders and it comes with Sonar LE. The number of inputs and routing capabilities on these is amazing.

[AV_Dub]

Behringer XENYX X1222USB from zZounds.com

I know a lot of people here hate behringer (there older stuff was a bit noisy)

but their new line has been improved. If you want low cost with everything you could want in a small mixer this is it. Behringer XENYX X1222USB from zZounds.com

This is a decent unit for the price. Scroll down and read about the features.

[Icarus]

I really like the look of the zed12fx. That's about perfect for what I'm doing. On top of that, I'm looking at the QSC K12s (or something equivalent) and a couple of decent floor monitors.

[sfoote]

I'm not an Eon fan. I went with Nexo PS series, tops and bottoms and a crossover built in to the power supply. It sounds way better to me (also using a KMS 105 and at least half my gigs are singer songwriter).

Cheaper than the Meyer UPJs, too.

As to a small mixer, I started with a Mackie (non-onyx) and hated. Then went to Allen and Heath Mixwizard. better. Then an unfortunate detour into the Yamaha 01v96. I've been into the Soundcraft M8. I like the sound, the EQ, the pres. It's a little bit larger than the Mixwizard. I also wanted a live mixer with direct outs so that I could record band practices through the board. Check.

I didn't try Mackie Onyx or A&H Zed, so can't comment. I think this end of the board market has been improving in the last years.
Sean

[AlexK]

Originally Posted by matthewd

Hi
My view is that it is sometimes better to hire ultra high quality boxes such as D&B Audiotechnik and that in fact the types of places that have masses of this kind of thing available for hire are rarely any more expensive than the more provincial small DJ focussed hire outfits.

Absolutely.

Although at the same time, people sometimes seem to get a little annoyed when people don't give them an answer to their question. You're definitely right though.

Originally Posted by matthewd

I haven't fully grasped the repertoire but it no substantial bass is required something like a pair of E8s with a D6 or D12 amp might be enough on its own. Otherwise, the arrangement whereby the sub has a pole on which to mount the tops can work quite nicely. I'd describe the sound as hi fi quality and much less harsh that you would get from the 12 inch active boxes out there.

I'd be tempted to say a pair of E12s - they're better controlled and sound nicer IMO. And yes about that hifi sound - even at higher volumes (although the E12s do seem to fall apart a bit in the low end, which I think is because of the enclosure material).

Originally Posted by matthewd

If the acoustic is a bit challenging in being over reverberant, you could try a larger number of E3s run at lower level dotted around. The other thing that makes a huge difference is the mics - if it is vocal, it might be worth looking at the DPA 4066 headsets which can go with most wireless bodypacks given the right adapter, giving exceptional sound and gain before feedback performance whilst giving the performer plenty of movement.
Matt

I'd be tempted to say if the acoustic is tough, actually go for a different pair of speakers. Being an incredibly small speaker, the E3 isn't really capable of controlling it's dispersion as well as it's bigger d&b counterparts, and hence gives you much less gain before feedback. I also find they don't sound as good, and roll off fairly sharply at the top end (14k+). Otherwise, great little speakers though, amazing output for their size...

Instead of multiple E3s, I'd suggest a pair of T10s in point-source configuration plus the matching sub, or an E15 sub (the T-sub isn't really all that meaty). While the T10 doesn't have that hifi sound when you turn it right up, and does tend to get fairly ugly when you push the volume, it is amazingly feedback resilient.

The other option is the Q10, which is IMO, a completely underrated speaker. It has that Q-series sound which the line-arrays also have (musical and smooth) in a point-source box. Very, very loud, and sounds ace even when you get it right to the top...

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by Icarus

I really like the look of the zed12fx. That's about perfect for what I'm doing. On top of that, I'm looking at the QSC K12s (or something equivalent) and a couple of decent floor monitors.

I used the zed12 FX for a small theatre gig. It has multiple stero inputs with RCA or balanced 1/4 inputs. This allowed me to run my computer for sound effects and a cdplayer at the same time. The USB out can be taken from several busses or the Main LR. Pretty cool.
I've never heard the K12s so I can't comment on them. They also make a KW 12 which has a wood enclosure. I'm told I'm crazy but I swear the wood boxes usually sound better.

[AlexK]

Wood cabs almost always do, but ultimately, a birch cabinet with poor components is probably going to be outperformed by a plastic cabinet with good components...