Tips for recording acoustic guitar and vox at once

[r0ck1r0ck2]

1st question....does she have a shrill voice?

what were the details...
big/small room?
what was the recording chain?
mic/pre etc....
as for the phazing issues....have you tried to flip the phase of the mics?
silly question i know but still
what about the little labs phase allignment tool...

do you get another swing at it later?
or do you have to deal with what you have...?

you might be able to bash this bastard into place with compression....
phase issues not withstanding...

[JonCraig]

there was a recent thread on this. search. for maximum rejection, try using two hypercardiods (i've used tlm 170's w/ great results). position them facing more downward so that the vocalist is in the null of the polar pattern (cardiods also work just fine here). then, for the vocal, use a fig. 8 mic, thereby placing the guitar in the null of the vocal mic. see? i call it "using polar patterns for fun and profit".

as for the phasing, listen to the vocal solo'd, then pop the guitars in. you'll still hear a bit of bleed (no way around that...) but if the freq response of the vocal goes out of whack, then you know you need to move the vox mic up or down a bit.

a glance at the phase meter does you well, too... keep that needle to the right!

--jon

[Eric Greedy]

two mics in fig-8 and an IBP. More Isolation than you'll believe.

[Jules]

Interesting thread topic for me

[Ruudman]

Originally Posted by Eric Greedy

two mics in fig-8 and an IBP. More Isolation than you'll believe.

I second that.

I have to add that bleed is OK in general.


ruudman

[borau]

Fig 8

Bleed is not OK, Never, How can you Auto tune everything with bleed?

[TyRip]

My first thought was trying an omni pointing over the top shoulder of the guitar towards the soundhole.

I was just thinking that an omni pattern and the close proximity to the chest of the singer would come out less harsh sounding, though depending on the guitar, how hard the guitar playing is, and the voice, you could get too much vocal in the acoustic track to get the tone you want out of either, I don't know.

[Gerax]

Hi

I did these kind of recordings several times for some folk duos in the vein of Simon & Garfunkel...I got good results (that actually allowed me to do some fixes on the vocals afterwards) by using cardioid or hypercardioid mics. Mic positions and angling is key here, so you'll need to experiment a bit; try setting the vocal mic lower and pointing a bit upward, (I haven't tried the figure of 8 pattern, as I had other players in the same room at the same time, figure 8 would've picked them up nicely tutt ), while the guitar mic (mics) points a bit downward and away from the vocal; also, the use of a pickup on the guitar might help in some cases to reinforce the sound of the mic signal and allow some more volume without too much bleed from the vocals (obviously it's got to be a good sounding one like a Fishman or the likes); the guitarist I recorded were using great instruments (Martin, Taylor...) and almost all were fitted with quality pickups, so I took those as well (D.I.ed) and used them as needed in the mix with the mic signal higher.
I also used some baffles in between the two guitarists and the acoustic bass player, to have a bit more separation, but not so much that they couldn't have a good communication and eye contact. I didn't use any headphone or monitoring, as they were doing complete performances from start to finish, so I did several takes and edited between them to get the final version. The room was small and good sounding (all wood), and by using the baffles and some carpets I ahd a controlled environmnt with not too many reflections.

Hope this helps

L.G.

[Jetblack]

This recently worked wonders for me:

Vocal: Rode NTV into a DVC into an IBP Jr.
Gtr: Original pair AKG 451 (CK5) in xy into API 3124

The guitar bleed into the NTV was obviously there but it was definitly helping the sound. Try fine tuning your vocal setup first (matching the right mic w/ right pre to the singers voice). Avoiding the bleed is great if you can, but try also working with it.

[Kris]

A stereo pair in ORTF can sometimes be the ticket.

Throw them up a couple of feet away, sit back and enjoy the performance.

[PRobb]

Originally Posted by Kris

A stereo pair in ORTF can sometimes be the ticket.

Throw them up a couple of feet away, sit back and enjoy the performance.

That suggests the other way to approach this, which is to go with the leakage. One problem with the cardiod/hyper cardiod thing is the frequency response of the leakage. What leakage there is will be thin sounding.

Try omnis. An omni can get closer to the source without proximity effect, and the leakage will be full frequency.

As always, YMMV.

[AlexLakis]

I've had success using 3 mics for live, female vox/guitar...One LDC where you'd normally have it for vocals (close up), then a spaced pair of SDCs, forming a triangle out in front on either side of the guitar (adhering to the 3:1 rule for maximum phase coherency). The SDCs weren't too far away from the guitar...maybe a few feet out and a few feet aside from the head/body. Hard pan the SDCs and run the LDC up the middle, and you're set!

[zarembo]

Hey Dobby,

Lately I've had success using what Jon and others describe:
creative use of null points through mic position.

Use a figure 8 on the voice and come in from the side of the singer's head and angle it so the null is pointing down at the guitar.

Same on gtr so null is pointing (hopefully) at voice. Using a fig-8 or hyper here

ALSO had great results with a MS pair. Singer can get very close to this setup...
then it becomes a matter of height so there is a good blend of voice/gtr in the M signal, bring the Sides up to taste.

However, in this setup you will have bleed so no vocal fixes here--

The pickup/di thing is a good idea but most of them do not sound very good.

I'm going to give the ORTF a try soon too--

THIS WOULD BE A GREAT QUESTION FOR THE GUEST MODS, no?

good ruck

[mr scratchy esq]

2 Fig. 8s are the way to go. That is absolute the best way to get separation between gtr. and vocal. In response to Gerax, if you have other musicians playing in the same room just put them in the null of the Fig. 8s too, (ie. most likely to the left or right of singer/guitarist at a 90 deg. angle) and use baffles for even more separation.

Bill

Teen Regime Studios
www.teenregimestudios.com

[john caldwell]

What is IBP and how is it used with two mics in fig 8, please?

John-

[Beech]

Could I ask someone who has used two figure of 8s to describe the positioning of the mic that's on the guitar. Pointing directly at the instrument or ?

[PRobb]

Originally Posted by Beech

Could I ask someone who has used two figure of 8s to describe the positioning of the mic that's on the guitar. Pointing directly at the instrument or ?

Set a mic to cardiod, put on headphones and walk 360º around it while saying "Testing, Testing" Then do the same in hyper cardiod, then in figure 8. Nothing is as dead as the side of a figure 8. So you position the mic so the dead side is pointing at what you don't want it to hear.

[JonCraig]

yep... polar patterns aren't used creatively enough. i know a guy who cuts out hvac in his vocal booth by using a u48 and pointing the null towards the vent. at 90 & 270 degrees from front, a fig 8 rejects 99.999% of sound. at the back of a cardioid mic, you're at best only rejecting ~20 or 25 dB. that's only a bit better than micing them w/ the pad on!

--jon

[audioez]

great thread... I'm always amazed at how good a single condenser sounds on the source(s) in discussion here. You just have to live with the mix...a scarry thought!!!

Use one mic

[Zwinter]

I have seen people use a stiff piece of cardboard wrapped with a heavier cloth material placed, more or less, horizontal to the ground between the guitar and the singers mouth. It can take a long time to set up and make the player feel comfortable, but did add some isolation.

[Metatone]

Originally Posted by Zwinter

I have seen people use a stiff piece of cardboard wrapped with a heavier cloth material placed, more or less, horizontal to the ground between the guitar and the singers mouth. It can take a long time to set up and make the player feel comfortable, but did add some isolation.

Yes, I've frequently used acoustic foam on a mic stand or tiltable music stand to help reduce bleed and it does seem to help.

I'll try the fig 8 suggestion next time...sounds good!

[citizenkeith]

Funny, I'm doing a vocal/acoustic session tonight. It will just be demos for the singer/songwriter to play to his bandmates. But I'd like to use this opportunity to experiment a little bit. He's a friend, so he has no objections to taking a little more time (it's all free for him anyway).

Thanks for the tips. I'll be trying the figure 8 on the vocal. The only figure 8 mic that I own is an AT4050. I'll probably try an Audix SCX-25 on the vocal... it's on loan from a friend.

Any tips on making each track a little different, giving some variety to a bare bones performance?

[Metatone]

Originally Posted by john caldwell

What is IBP and how is it used with two mics in fig 8, please?

John-

I'll field the IBP part of the question:

Little Labs IBP Analog Phase Alignment Tool (IBP for short).
IBP stands for In-Between-Phase.
There's also an IBP junior.

I just got an IBP myself and I'm finding it a very handy tool.
I love the Little Labs stuff.


On a related note, I notice folks mentioning 'phase meters' a lot. I could see a lot of benefit to checking in with one of these...where might I find one and are there any particular units that are favoured? Thanks!

[squeegybug]

I'll throw in with the single omni mic crowd (pretty small crowd though...). If your performer knows her stuff and is comfortable playing and singing at the same time, then you've recorded *her*, as she sounds.

I understand about the balance of not enough of one or the other. What single mic did you try for this? Takes a little positioning and the performer listening on headphones as she plays to get the balance she wants, especially if playing fingerstyle. With flatpicks, the guitar is often louder than the vocal, and positioning changes.

I'll typically use a small Avenson mic (or pair) for this, or maybe sometimes an EV 635 for a more "earthy" sound. For more room/power/detail, maybe an M149 in a wide pattern, not necessarily omni.

For overdubs try this -- be sure to play the song all the way through 3-4 times at the same session. Don't stop for mistakes, etc. Typically I can find filler close enough to fix any really obvious places, if the song is performed fairly consistently. But then I'm not usually after perfection either, just a little reality.

But, if you really want/need separate mics, of course that can be done. Good tips here already, I'd just say my best takes this way have been with fig-8 ribbon close on voice and cardioid-or-hypercard small condenser close on 15th fret. Again this will have some bleed, but will still have separation between the instrument and singer.

Steve

[Beech]

I'm certainly going to try the two fig 8 method but to be honest my best results so far have been a Rode NT4 (stereo) and trick around with positioning to get a balance nice between the voice and guitar (and room of course). That to me is the most natural sounding.

Had to do a quick setup last weekend with a three piece with vocal/guitar, fiddle and concertina. I fell into the trap of micing the voice and guitar with two seperate cardioids. Not good.

I wonder how Dylan records voice and guitar so successfully?

[jpupo74]

Hi,

Last night was MY FIRST SESSION EVER for folk music including 2 guits and fiddle. One of the guitarist was singing. SHIT!!!!!!!! They show up and I didn't have time to ask you slutz!

I placed a U-87 using the carioid pattern and aiming up almost to the singer's nose. For the guitar I used a DPA 4011 without any good results. It didn't work well with the U-87 and I really like what the U-87 was doing with this guy's voice. I finally placed a AEA R92 and it worked better.

At the same time I want to add that the fiddle sounded great with a AEA R88!
This behaved so good in my session!

I also had a pair of Schoeps MK 21 as my A-B in ORTF but they didn't work. The fiddle was reallly loud for this session. I don't know if this is normal or if I should place them in an isolated booth next time.

For the other guit I used a AEA R-84. It ROCKS!

Ok.....

I just want to hear from you a lot on this thread cause the guys are coming back. Next time the same 3 guys plus a banjo and a bass.

TIPS

PUPO

[zakco]

As others have mentioned, If you've got a great performer and a decent room, don't be afraid to capture the perfomance with a stereo setup. I've had good results with both ORTF from about 3-4 ft away or Mid/Side slightly closer for a more controlled sound. Spend a few minutes experimenting with positioning to get the balance of room and direct right. When it works the realism is stunning.

Tell the performer to imagine they are performing in an all acoustic coffeehouse type venue and they are mixing the gtr/voc balance for those in the closest seats. Off go the headphones, up goes the comfort level and a magical take will often follow....

Try it, you'll be amazed.

-Z-

[JonCraig]

Originally Posted by zakco

Off go the headphones, up goes the comfort level and a magical take will often follow....

yep. wish i got to do this sort of thing more often...

--jon

[stevep]

Hi all... I was just working on a session recording a female singer/songwriter using a mic for the vox and a mic for the guitar. I just couldn't get the results I wanted. First of all, even with trying two different mics, the vox sounded shrill, and I think it was a result of the guitar mic bleeding into the vox. I actually liked the sound of just one mic, but I couldn't really get enough guitar to mix in.... using two mics just didn't seem to work though... I think I might have had some phasing issues, but the bleed problem seemed to be the most significant. Any suggestions?

Great subject !

And here I go again.... the BEYER 500 for vocal and 2 mics for guitar in stereo ... no real favorites it kind of depends on the song and the guitar.
and maybe blend in a pickup (center) if it s got a good sound.

The reason for the Beyer is the super tight pattern. with this setup I have been able to do punches on the vocal track. add effects. eq, ect.....and you wont have to worry about bleed as long as the singer gets right up on the mic.

Also close mic the guitar and you can get rid of most of the vocals.

Separation!

This is something that ALL pro. engineers should know how to do.
whatever way you can get it done as customers are paying us to record them
better than they can do it on there own . and " I cant" do that punch because of the bleed should not be in our vocabulary.

As others have mentioned, If you've got a great performer and a decent room, don't be afraid to capture the perfomance with a stereo setup. I've had good results with both ORTF from about 3-4 ft away or Mid/Side slightly closer for a more controlled sound. Spend a few minutes experimenting with positioning to get the balance of room and direct right. When it works the realism is stunning.

Tell the performer to imagine they are performing in an all acoustic coffeehouse type venue and they are mixing the gtr/voc balance for those in the closest seats. Off go the headphones, up goes the comfort level and a magical take will often follow....

Try it, you'll be amazed.

This is the other option and you will get the feel which can be sometimes more
important than the sound.

Great subject ,, just practice and experiment.

Steve