Mic setup to be permanently slung in small concert hall

[xavster]

Dear all,

I teach Music Technology at a school in the UK. This means I spend most of time teaching kids how to close mic guitar amps and drum kits. I do have some training in recording acoustic/classical music and I'm aware of the different approaches to stereo mic technique.

We have a small concert room (which seats about 80) and is approximately 20 feet high by 20 feet across by 50 feet length. It has a lovely acoustic for performing chamber music. Up until now, we have been using a simple SD card recorder with built in mics, but I'm very keen to get it set up properly, so that mics are permanently installed and useable by any member of the music department (not all music tech specialists!)

The usual thing to be recorded will be soloist (instrumental or vocal) with piano accompaniment. The piano is a lovely Yamaha S6 grand. Occasionally there will be small ensembles - string quartet, or woodwind, brass or vocal ensembles.

I'd like to sling a pair of mics 9-10 feet up with some sort of facility to move them backwards and forwards and possibly change their height as well. Question is - do I go for something like ORTF, or would a pair of spaced omnis do the job better? I personally prefer the sound of spaced omnis, but would on ortf pair be easier to get in the right place?

If we had a budget of £1000 (1650USD), what mics would people recommend? In our studio, we use Rode NT1a, Rode NT5, SE4400 mics (amongst others) and I'd happily buy a matched pair of any of those, or anything else people can recommend.

Thanks in advance

Xavier

[zarquon]

I would consider putting up either an M/S or Blumlin pair.

If you can rig it up on a pull line to give you the adjustable height and also not put any stress on the connectors. Mark the pull line with your favourite placements. You can then also put a tag line on it to move it up/down stage to your liking.

Make sure that you can lower the mics (pull line) all the way to stage level to do adjustments and maintenance.

Sounds like a great little project.

Z.

[bash]

In our concert hall (1,000 seats) we have slung four omnis spaced evenly across the width of the stage (about every three meters), about three meters above the stage and swung a meter or two outward over the audience seating. Their positions never get changed. I'm not responsible for their placement, just relating how ours are setup. Depending on the number of performers (soloists, chamber orchestra and symphony orchestra) the engineer will choose which mics (and how many mics) to record from.

[John Willett]

I have a friend who has done several permanent installs in college churches.

An ORTF pair of MKH 8040 work well and maybe with 8020 omni outriggers.

The nice thing about these is that, being RF condensers, they don't attract dust to the diaphragm and are not affected by condensation that can happen easily in a hall.

He uses an electric motor to raise and lower the mics as required. If you had a second one of these further back, you could use that to move the mics forwards and backwards.

He is on this forum, so may pop in with more details - or send me a PM and I can tell you how to contact him (he is in the UK).

[xavster]

Thank you for the replies so far!
John - if you could PM me your friend's contact details, I'd very much appreciate it.

Xavier

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by xavster

Thank you for the replies so far!
John - if you could PM me your friend's contact details, I'd very much appreciate it.

Xavier

Done

[Karl Jackson]

You may have seen this already, but here's a past discussion:

Permanent mics for a concert hall.

Best,

kj

[xavster]

Thanks - I had read that, which is what got me thinking about ORTF. In that other thread, there is the suggestion that spaced omnis aren't as good for chamber music. Is that correct or have I misinterpreted?
I might well see if I can hire a few mics and try some configurations and see what sounds best.

[Plush]

Yes it is true that spaced omni mics are inappropriate for any chamber music programs where you have a soloist. This soloist might be a violinist, singer, cellist or anyone who stands to the left of the conductor (audience perspective) or stands in the crook of the piano.

The reason that omni mics are not used for these types of programs is that movement of the soloist will cause the sound to bounce from the left to the right speaker and, in general, this set-up offers a vague stereo image.

It is much better to standardize on an ORTF or NOS set-up using cardioid or sub-cardioid mics.

The greater "reach" of the cardioid mics will also allow you to put them farther out in the hall thus offering a less "spot lit" pick-up for the ensemble. Student ensembles do benefit from some distance since high quality mics close in pick up the mistakes in high fidelity. It is better to offer a soft focus pick-up in my opinion.

They can hang there for years, so make sure you get very good mics.
d.a.v. electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 mic amps are recommended as your microphone pre-amps.

[RobAnderson]

I'd agree that ORTF is perhaps the safest way to go.

But I disagree that omni's are not good in this context - I have used small AB pairs (~40cm) many times on chamber music recordings with excellent results and no ping-ponging of soloists. If the hall acoustics are good, omni's can be spectacular.

I prefer the color of the omni's - especially with music involving cello and/or piano where cardioids do not perform as well IMO.

Subcards are a good compromise and I use these most often, but usually in a small AB configuration instead of NOS - the on-axis response seems to work best for me.

[David.H]

Regarding soloists moving about in the stereo image, a point to watch is the soloist who tends to move when playing. Slight body movements (swaying) will affect the image I have found. I love the sound that Omni's give, however sub (fat) cardioid are also great and worth trying. For a permanant rig I'd go for the ORTF pair every time. However I have found M/S in permanant rigs.

[xavster]

Thanks all for the advice! I'll hire some good omnis and some good cardioids and try both out and see which I like best....

Anybody know of anywhere good in the UK for hiring top class mics? Most places I've found on Google seem to hire SM57s and 58s etc, but not the kind of thing I'm looking for.

Any more recommendations for the actual mics?

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by xavster

Anybody know of anywhere good in the UK for hiring top class mics?

Richmond Film Services

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by xavster

Thanks - I had read that, which is what got me thinking about ORTF. In that other thread, there is the suggestion that spaced omnis aren't as good for chamber music. Is that correct or have I misinterpreted?

Originally Posted by Plush

Yes it is true that spaced omni mics are inappropriate for any chamber music programs where you have a soloist. This soloist might be a violinist, singer, cellist or anyone who stands to the left of the conductor (audience perspective) or stands in the crook of the piano.

The reason that omni mics are not used for these types of programs is that movement of the soloist will cause the sound to bounce from the left to the right speaker and, in general, this set-up offers a vague stereo image.

Bouncing of soloists depends a lot on the actual spacing between the two mics. If it's not more than about 1.5 ft or 50 cm, the bouncing will not be too obvious. BTW soloists can also bounce in ORTF-ish setups. It's not that obvious, but in the end it boils down to recording angle (less wide spacing OR less angle between mics = wider recording angle = less bouncing). Spaced setups tend to spread the center a bit more than angled setups, thus bouncing will be a little exaggerated.

Originally Posted by Plush

The greater "reach" of the cardioid mics will also allow you to put them farther out in the hall thus offering a less "spot lit" pick-up for the ensemble. Student ensembles do benefit from some distance since high quality mics close in pick up the mistakes in high fidelity. It is better to offer a soft focus pick-up in my opinion.

Great point, as usual.

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

I'd agree that ORTF is perhaps the safest way to go.

But I disagree that omni's are not good in this context - I have used small AB pairs (~40cm) many times on chamber music recordings with excellent results and no ping-ponging of soloists. If the hall acoustics are good, omni's can be spectacular.

BUT they need to be in the right place. ORTF is far more tolerant as to placement.

The good thing about MS would be that you can adjust the recording angle with the levels. I've seen ORTFs, MS's, spaced omni/cardioid packets in a larger symphony hall, and even a permanent omni tree.
For ORTF, especially the "reach" one a little farther back in the hall, I'd recommend Neumann 184.

[xavster]

I think the problem with M/S is the extra complexity - I'd really like this to be easily useable - having to explain to others how M/S works might confuse....!