Live Jazz Recording

[brianwflood]

I'm going to be doing a live recording of a jazz group that is upright piano, upright bass & drums. I haven't seen the space yet but I've been told they'll be in a corner, high ceilings, probably a very "live" sounding room is my guess.

My setup will be...

(1) MXL V67Q stereo condenser for the room
(2) CAD TSM 411 on the upright (it works well on my bass amp at least!)
(3) Audix i5 a little above the kit, aimed at the snare

My rationale for the bass and drums is to just be able to have a little more direct sound in the mix, but I was thinking of just letting the piano be because it'll probably be the loudest instrument, plus the MXL alone will probably capture it nicely.

What are your thoughts on piano? I do have a rode nt-1a but my mixer doesnt have a third xlr input with phantom power (plus I'd really like to play it simple...)

[Jungle Jazz]

In my experience, in a typical acoustic jazz trio setting, the drums are usually the loudest, not the piano. As such, if you were only going to close mic two instruments, I'd mic the piano and bass. Depending on how the room sounds, you might be able to do without a room mic and just close mic everything, adding a touch of reverb in post if necessary. If, however, the group has a nice balanced sound in the room, you could, as you propose, use the stereo mic for the room, strategically positioning it for an even balance between instruments.

It might help if you could manage to get another preamp or at least an external power supply so you can use your extra condenser. You might want to put your stereo mic on either piano or drums. An upright piano can be a challenge. It often helps if you can pull off the front panel or fall board to open up the sound, as with upright pianos, the sound is often bottled up. You can also try micing it from the back. The best thing to do is to listen to the instruments first, and then try to locate the position where each sounds the best.

There's lots of information over on the Remote Possibilities forum about jazz and live recording, so you might want to check over there.

[loujudson]

I'd use a single stereo mic (or pair), plus one on piano and one on bass plus a kick mic.

Put the stereo mic as thought you were standing rght n front of the group where everything sounds balanced, and mix the spot mics in place so the live stereo is predominant.

MY experience is not that the drums are loudest (ythat is roakc and rool!), if it is tasty and well played. Good musicians will balance themselve nicely.

I've done this a lot and it works great! I hope you have more than 3 mics. and a mixer...

L

[Musiclab]

you just plain don't have enough mics to do this any justice, if you want this to at all sound professional. Find a rental house and rent some gear if you want this to sound like anything

[brianwflood]

I think what I'll do is combine lou judon and jungle jazz's suggestions.

I'll do the room mic, placed from a nicely balanced listening perspective. For the individual instruments, I'll mic the upright bass and the piano with my rode mic (I'll bring a second mixer that has phantom power.) I'll ask the piano player to remove the front board.

I'll have to find which element of the drums needs the most reinforcement however. I realize every space/player is different, but why do you recomend kick and not snare, for example?

I also will check out remote possibilities in the mean time.

Thanks guys!

[loujudson]

Let us hear the results! Sound like you are on the right path.

I might mic the kick if it needs a bit of thump - not real close like rock, just close enough to get a clear definition. I wouldn't mic the snare unless there is a delicate brushwork getting lost. You can even do it all with one mic, slightly higher than the kick, looking over it toward the snare, about a foot away (just as you say, I realize). Often I do stereo overhead, snare and kick, with the overhead predomonant. But mono piano and overhead is fine too, panned to match the room mic. Experiment! If you have the time, that is... Maybe your i5 idea is just fine! I did that ust last night on a percussionist playing jazz with Cajon, cymbals, tiny thin snare, and lots of toys not a real kit. But micing the hole of the cajon makes it a lot like a kick drum.

Upright piano is not always easy. By the time you get close enough for an initmate sound, you pick up the wooden sounds of the pedal mechanism, so it is good to check it by sticking your head in there while it is playing. Maybe open the top instead of the bottom?

Usually when I do this kind of thing there is a vocalist so my techique is more close micing, less room. And I like to pan everything as they appear on stage, piano left, drums right, bass center, usually. It is a whole lot easier if they don't use a PA! Vocalists always do, despite what you see in old movies (I just watched To Have and Have Not with Bogart and Bacall... OT)

Lou

[brianwflood]

Thanks for your feedback! I get my MXL in the mail in a couple of days and I'm psyched. (Finally I can record stereo! Oh the possibiliies... acoustic guitar, overheads, field recordings...)

One thing I have to avoid is placing the room mic too distant from the ensemble because I'll lose critical details and get more of a roomy, distant sound. I'm thinking maybe 8 feet from the drums.

I'm going to ask the drummer about brushing too.. if at least half the tunes are on brushes I'm going to opt for a mono overhead type thing directed at the snare with the i5. Otherwise, I'll mic the kick for extra thump.

The piano will be tricky.. no doubt about it.

[loujudson]

Goodluck! Here is something like it I did a couple years ago - not a pure jazzthing, but similar. We put a pair of AT 4050s near the pianist's knees, and mic'd the drums with overheads, snare and kick, and a clip on the bass (AT PRO35) and the pianist mixed it from the 8 tracks we did. They have a nice sample on the restaurant's website:

Capurro's Restaurant and Bar, San Francisco CA 94109

It's a San Francisco thing... I kinda like it, and they asked us back to do it again next month!

Lou

[brianwflood]

I like it. I gotta say, it sounds full and fresh considering its jazz close-miked. (I think I was expecting it to not sound as airy and open.)

With that said, is there a reason why you didn't do a room mic (which is what I'll be doing)? If I had a second stero miking option I'd probably do it that way actually, but I only have the MXL. Thanks!

[loujudson]

Thanks for the compliment. No room mic beacuse the bar was open, and the tourists were getting drunk. I was surprised it had no more of that! I was also surprised at the nice mix, since I just gave the tracks to the pianist who hired us.

If we'd ahd a quieter room, I'd've used room mics - but I like close miced instruments with an ambient mix a lot. PLUS a big part of it was the stereo overheads. I use a VP88 a lot for live overheads as it picks up a generous but manageable amount of room...
Shure - Microphones - VP88 Stereo Condenser Microphone
It's one of the most versatile mics I have, and I've accumulated over 75 mics so far (we do a lot of live sound...)

Best luck and post the results!

Lou

[brianwflood]

Thanks. I will absolutely post it. Hey lou, if you don't mind me picking your brain a little more....

A long time ago I purhcased an AMT condenser made for miking upbright bass. I JUST found it in my gear pile. I remember using it on an upbright about 8 years ago and having odd and disappointing results... but I may have been using it all wrong.

One thing about it is that its supposed to amplify the soundhole (which makes sense) but would this help me for live recording? I'd kinda like to get the meaty attacks as much as the soundhole, and this looks like it wouldn't get those meaty attacks... know what I mean?

[loujudson]

Can you show me what that is? I don't know AMT.

I'll respond more in the morning. Just spent four hours dealing with a clogged drain - O the joys of being a homeowner.

L