Perect Storm - what's going on in the remote business?

[BFSound]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

I'm not so sure I agree with this. Maybe across the pond this is true, but I can't seem to find any bands willing to pay ANYTHING to hire a FOH engineer. Your "not quite as lucrative" equates to beer money from what I've found. There are touring bands out there, you're right; but they're doing it "for the music" and "we'll make it big one day." The number of bands actually making a living at this (and can afford to employ techs) has most certainly NOT gone up, even if there are more artists out there. And I'm not so convinced that there are "more artists to work for."

C'mon bishop i hope your not basing this off our conversation which you never replied back too?

I agree with your comment as most bands do it for the beer money and the "one day we'll be big" thought but thats not our situation! Just to be clear.

There are still way too many bands out there hauling there gear around in a van loading and unloaded them selves touring all year and for what?

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

I'm not so sure I agree with this. Maybe across the pond this is true, but I can't seem to find any bands willing to pay ANYTHING to hire a FOH engineer. Your "not quite as lucrative" equates to beer money from what I've found. There are touring bands out there, you're right; but they're doing it "for the music" and "we'll make it big one day." The number of bands actually making a living at this (and can afford to employ techs) has most certainly NOT gone up, even if there are more artists out there. And I'm not so convinced that there are "more artists to work for."

I am actually making a living with a clientele that includes five to ten (varies) ocal bands the hire us (my partner and I are a two person sound and recording company)for sound. Thye just have to set their rates so that the client can pay 250 - 500 for sound in the contract, though there are times when they say I make more per gig than they are...

We get an average of two gigs per week year round among a dozen or so clients.

Only weddings and political fundraisers allow for more than $500 per gig, though.

L

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by Plush

Now Naxos started off by offering just what I say is not wanted above. They sold it for $5. Now, they have moved up market somewhat and are recording better groups. The difference is that now they save money by taking it out of the engineer's/producer's hide. (very low fees for an all in package of recording/editing/mastering)

How to survive and compete then?

I have also heard some very disturbing stories from musicians about geting stiffed by them and other small classical labels - and when they finally made it bigger, did they pay the poor performers whom they had stepped on? Not quite. It is second-hand for me so no details.

L

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

I'd agree, you need to be in an area with a lively arts scene. I do keep pestering the Albany Symphony Orchestra with samples of my work-- maybe, someday, they will come to their senses-- but whether they do or not, the secret of success as I've seen it is to move through as many circles of musicians as you can. Tonight I recorded the Sage City Symphony playing "Peter and the Wolf." Are there 'better' versions of this? Who cares? Four people wanted the deluxe audio CD packaging-- and then the commissioned work that opened the show, the kid's school wants a copy of that. And I'll be recording the wedding concerts in June for two people in the group.

The very utmost important thing you need, wherever you are, is a reputation where your name is synonymous with exceptional work, and then involve yourself with musicians that care passionately about what they're doing.

Listen to how much these guys dig playing with each other, the fact they are old friends and have created this hallowed Sage City tradition, they're just bursting with it, of course they want a copy!!!

4shared.com - online file sharing and storage - download Moderato quasi marcia by Dvorak -- Sage City Symphony.mp3

<clapping>

excellent comments Joel....

[Corran]

What's going on in the remote world? Well here's a story from my world, about 15 minutes ago:

A large gig I had gets cancelled one week out. I get a call from the person who made that call (high school music director). He complains that my (agreed upon months ago) rate was too high. I tell him that the job cost that much because XYZ.

His response: "Well I've done some recording in my time and your time estimate is just too much. It isn't hard or time-consuming to record and make a CD." He further implies that anyone can do it and tells me they've hired a parent of one of his students to do it at 1/3rd my price (bring in the handheld recorder?).

Life needs an "undo" button so I could tell him what I really wanted to say right then, and then take it back and say what I did, which was calmly explain my point of view. Didn't matter - job is gone and I don't think I'll be getting called back by anyone in the entire district, considering his tone of voice and outrage at my (again, agreed upon months ago) rates.

Also, I did the job last year and everyone positively loved the recording. I also did it for basically the same rate.

There is not a smiley for how I feel right now. <-- this is a start.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by Corran

What's going on in the remote world? Well here's a story from my world, about 15 minutes ago:

A large gig I had gets cancelled one week out. I get a call from the person who made that call (high school music director). He complains that my (agreed upon months ago) rate was too high. I tell him that the job cost that much because XYZ.

His response: "Well I've done some recording in my time and your time estimate is just too much. It isn't hard or time-consuming to record and make a CD." He further implies that anyone can do it and tells me they've hired a parent of one of his students to do it at 1/3rd my price (bring in the handheld recorder?).

Life needs an "undo" button so I could tell him what I really wanted to say right then, and then take it back and say what I did, which was calmly explain my point of view. Didn't matter - job is gone and I don't think I'll be getting called back by anyone in the entire district, considering his tone of voice and outrage at my (again, agreed upon months ago) rates.

Also, I did the job last year and everyone positively loved the recording. I also did it for basically the same rate.

There is not a smiley for how I feel right now. <-- this is a start.

Bummer. Unforutunately this kind of thing is happening more an more in the world today. We have a FATHER of one of the orchestra's board of trustee members who is trying to take over our recording gig for FREE with the orchestra we have been recording since 1969. He says he can do as good a job as we can (I guess with his Zoom audio recorder and HD prosumer video camera versus our $10,000 worth of AV equipment we bring to every gig and our 40 years in the business). He says "I am just trying to help" but in reality he just wants to do this to take up his time since he retired. I have seen some of his video and he sucks BIG TIME.

I feel for you but with the economy still in the dumpers what are you going to do. Once they hear this amateur's work maybe they will do some rethinking and come back to you on their knees or maybe not. Sometimes all people are concerned with is the bottom line and quality is not even part of the equation.

Again sorry for the loss of a paying job.

[Corran]

Thanks for the commiseration. I think my biggest obstacle here (and why I am getting out of here asap) is the fact that they in fact do not care about quality. All they want is some kind of tangible record of a concert to listen to once to and throw away. And I guess at that point it really doesn't matter if I'm using Schoeps or the built-in mics of an H4, and furthermore there really isn't a reason for me to charge $X if Joe the Plumber can do it for 10x less.

Anybody interested in a couple pairs of Schoeps?

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by Corran

...

Also, I did the job last year and everyone positively loved the recording. I also did it for basically the same rate.

There is not a smiley for how I feel right now. <-- this is a start.

If there was a way to know what the dad is bringing to the table gear-wise (i.e., if it is a Zoom and a stand)... I'd be real tempted to call back the band director and offer, at no cost to him, a side-by-side. If he feels, after a side-by-side comparison, that your rates are too high (or the competitor is, indeed, qualified and giving it away) you say "Thanks" and walk away (with a nice sample recording for future reference). If he likes yours better, he agrees to uphold his verbal contract with you and pay the going rate.

Most folks have no idea that when they agree on a date and a rate, an enforceable contract has been made. It's a wee bit easier to enforce if there is a signed bit of paper... otherwise it's "he said, he said"... but he breached the agreement, regardless. Sounds like a (currently) bad deal.

And, as an early mentor of mine once said, "No one ever went broke walking away from a bad deal."

HB

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

If there was a way to know what the dad is bringing to the table gear-wise (i.e., if it is a Zoom and a stand)... I'd be real tempted to call back the band director and offer, at no cost to him, a side-by-side. If he feels, after a side-by-side comparison, that your rates are too high (or the competitor is, indeed, qualified and giving it away) you say "Thanks" and walk away (with a nice sample recording for future reference). If he likes yours better, he agrees to uphold his verbal contract with you and pay the going rate.

Most folks have no idea that when they agree on a date and a rate, an enforceable contract has been made. It's a wee bit easier to enforce if there is a signed bit of paper... otherwise it's "he said, he said"... but he breached the agreement, regardless. Sounds like a (currently) bad deal.

And, as an early mentor of mine once said, "No one ever went broke walking away from a bad deal."

HB

Very good suggestion. I think the "Dad" will probably be freaked out if Corran show up as well. Maybe this will show up the problems with how the "Dad" approaches the recording versus someone who knows what they are doing.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

I do keep pestering the Albany Symphony Orchestra with samples of my work-- maybe, someday, they will come to their senses

Don't feel bad Joel! Their CD's were recorded by Greg Squires. I heard some of the work he did with them and it was very impressive.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Don S

Don't feel bad Joel! Their CD's were recorded by Greg Squires. I heard some of the work he did with them and it was very impressive.

Oh, I can wait... I'm not like one of these mad-dog engineers who needs to slay everyone in my path...

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Corran

(high school music director). "Well I've done some recording in my time and your time estimate is just too much. It isn't hard or time-consuming to record and make a CD."

I did a recording of a decent band last year. About a half hour before the downbeat, a local band director walks in with an "all in one" Yamaha or Tascam box. Puts up 2 Rhode nt4's about 5 inches apart, 30 degrees, 6 feet off the floor, and a KSM 27 behind the conductor.
Needless to say, he forgot to hit a "save" button and asked for a copy of what I got!
Sorry to hear Corran, but I'm sure if you wait a month or so, you'll get the gig back! This guy obviously has very little experience to say such a thing.

[Corran]

Thanks for the suggestion HB. I'm afraid that the director's attitude towards me was...less than cordial, let's say. I tried to negotiate a little and he wasn't having any of it. I don't think I'm welcome.

And besides, as I alluded, I don't think it would matter if the guy's recording sounded like a CB radio, it was cheaper and that's all they care about. As long as his recorder doesn't die, they get what they want.

I guess it's too bad that handheld recorders are reliable enough that this isn't an issue...

[boojum]

There is talk that MP3's have deadened the public ear to quality. But think back to what folks were listening with 20 years ago. Or even now. When we mix we have to mix for really good and the crappy table model less-than-boom-box quality player. And for everything in between.

There are just so many gigs available for field recordists. And good old Uncle Dweeb can squeeze out a quality guy just because he is cheap or free. But if they want to sell copies there will be some eventual resistance to what is Uncle Dweeb's work. And then they will come back. What you do to pay the bills in the meantime can be a problem.

The local radio station has a sound engineer who records from the balcony railing at the back of the hall with two mcs about 30' apart into an old Marantz DAT machine. His recordings are just awful. But he is "the sound engineer" because he is a ham radio operator. Makes sense, eh??!! LOL

There is an old saying, "Quality is like oats. If you want clean, fresh oats you must pay a fair price. If you can be satisfied with the oats that have already been through the horse, those come a lot cheaper."

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by boojum

There is talk that MP3's have deadened the public ear to quality. But think back to what folks were listening with 20 years ago. Or even now. When we mix we have to mix for really good and the crappy table model less-than-boom-box quality player. And for everything in between.

There are just so many gigs available for field recordists. And good old Uncle Dweeb can squeeze out a quality guy just because he is cheap or free. But if they want to sell copies there will be some eventual resistance to what is Uncle Dweeb's work. And then they will come back. What you do to pay the bills in the meantime can be a problem.

The local radio station has a sound engineer who records from the balcony railing at the back of the hall with two mcs about 30' apart into an old Marantz DAT machine. His recordings are just awful. But he is "the sound engineer" because he is a ham radio operator. Makes sense, eh??!! LOL

There is an old saying, "Quality is like oats. If you want clean, fresh oats you must pay a fair price. If you can be satisfied with the oats that have already been through the horse, those come a lot cheaper."

All good thoughts.

One other problem is that today so many arts organizations are hurting. I was just talking to one of our non profits and two corporations that use to give them money pulled back their funding saying that they are now spending the money feeding the needy and giving to programs that directly impact the lives of people who have nothing.

Here in our town we have about 26% of the people that are below the poverty level and I guess these companies are trying to help the needy but they are pulling their help from the arts organizations just when a lot of arts organizations need the help the most. Ticket sales are down, people don't have money to donate to the arts organizations and prices of everything including sheet music and hall rentals are going up exponentially.

Not a good time to be a non profit or a school system.

We have to get out of this recession and back to a working economy with unemployment under 6% before companies are willing to go back and start funding arts organizations.

City schools are hurting big time. A lot of cities around here did not pass any of the levies that the schools were asking for so they have had to cut a lot of after school activities and funding for projects that are now considered expendable. This was due to a lot of people losing their jobs when places like Ford and York Air Conditioning shut down their plants or moved production to Mexico or the far east to save money.

Unfortunately in this area that means cutting out music and art and keeping the football and basketball teams.(because those are what are REALLY IMPORTANT to the alumni)

It has to get better. Hopefully sooner than later. We all talk about the Domino effect but in business right now we are seeing that effect all over. Companies are folding left and right, people are out of work, they can't buy things they want and companies that supply even the most basic things like food, transportation and shelter are hurting big time. Officially the recession maybe over but around here it is going to take at least two years if not more to get things moving and they may NEVER be as good as they were in the 90's.

FWIW and YMMV

[Plush]

Oh well. . .if someone got shafted by a high school band teacher, so what?

It has only sent a message that one's outlook on the work will never be a match for the high school mentality. Get out now!

Why are you judging yourself from what a high school sadist says?
Turn your back on him and his ilk and never return.

Unless you needed that money to make a payment on a Lexus or something, don't lose any sleep over what this dickschlong said.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by Plush

Oh well. . .if someone got shafted by a high school band teacher, so what?

It has only sent a message that one's outlook on the work will never be a match for the high school mentality. Get out now!

Why are you judging yourself from what a high school sadist says?
Turn you back on him and his ilk and never return.

Unless you needed that money to make a payment on a Lexus or something, don't lose any sleep over what this dickschlong said.

Don't mince words, Plush. Tell us how you really feel about it. LOL

What you say is true. But if that engineer was counting on the cash for paying bills he got shafted twice: rudeness and not getting the gig.

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by boojum

... if that engineer was counting on the cash for paying bills he got shafted twice: rudeness and not getting the gig.

Case in point for collecting a deposit to reserve the date. Then you would have gotten a half your fee for not showing up... I know, I don't usually do that either.

L

[Corran]

Re: getting half (or whatever) the fee as a deposit - I would love that. I tried to do that once and the gig got cancelled, no questions asked. Working with a school system, that's nigh impossible. Plush is right, working with a school system that doesn't respect or want an excellent recording is a dead-end road.

(I was not counting on that money to pay bills, but, certainly anyone would be disappointed at the loss of that amount for no good reason. I would have liked to use it on some more gear )

[loujudson]

Well, the only time I got a 50% deposit was for a wedding, scheduled six months out with a big time acoustic group. A month before the wedding, the groom called and said the wedding was off, keep the deposit. He sounded really really sad. The deposit makes up for any other gigs you couldn't accept due to date reservation.

But with a school, I wouldn't excpect it...

L

[charles maynes]

the other obvious side of this is that you as a professional scale your system and work to meet lower price points. A pair of Schoeps mics, placed properly, feeding a zoom recorder, being operated by someone who knows what they are doing, is going to sound better than an amateur recordist (or at least it SHOULD).

This is a big time of change- and the thing that a pro brings to the table SHOULDNT be gear- but experience and judgement. Make that be the selling point.


as Steve Albini once said-

"Do everything else right, and the equipment will disappear in insignificance."

[Don S]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

the other obvious side of this is that you as a professional scale your system and work to meet lower price points. A pair of Schoeps mics, placed properly, feeding a zoom recorder, being operated by someone who knows what they are doing, is going to sound better than an amateur recordist (or at least it SHOULD).

I agree - that's exactly why I invested in a SD702.

[mosrite]

Get out! Get out now! Its a sinking ship I tellsya

One thing I've learnt is that you cannot change the way things are by bitching about them.

If you're not making money and you need to make money from this strange business then adapt or emigrate or, alternatively (and ill advised), spend the rest of your time on this earth lamenting something that is lost. Someone once said of the past "don't go back, there is no one there," so think forward, streamline your operation, throw out the deadwood (like the high school band teacher) and move on brother

[joelpatterson]

Bryan, dees whole quandary has been rolling around in my head (competing with upstart amateurs with the newest fangled compact handhelds, coupled with the failure of The Music Director Authority Figure's ability to distinguish a "quality recording" from a "you can't deny this is a recording of the show.")

I don't think there's some "labor of Hercules" answer, proving conclusively in one fell swoop that you are providing something worthwhile and timeless, and these jokers nipping at your heels are clowns and wasting perfectly good memory.

It's tremendously frustrating-- but really all you can do is produce excellent product. After that, all you can do is let it drift out onto the breeze and trust with an apostle's faith that some portion of the people exposed to it are appropriately impressed and remember this sensation of impression.

I wish I had a dime for every instance where something clearly quite ghastly was offered up for my delight, I wish I had a penny! And this whole 'calling you up long after the rate and schedule was agreed to and proceeding to bitch about the terms, that were agreed upon' sounds like classic multiple personality bullshit. There are plenty of these types around, learning to sidestep them entirely is one more bitter lesson, in a litany of bitter lessons to learn.

In a business where EVERYTHING, unfortunately, is subjective, you need to step back and look at the ONE objective thing you know for sure: you're doing the "real" thing that will stand up over time. And then, maybe the only bright spot: you're gathering a wealth of scarcely believable stories, if you ever decide to start writing mic reviews, these tales are priceless.

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

...

In a business where EVERYTHING, unfortunately, is subjective, you need to step back and look at the ONE objective thing you know for sure: you're doing the "real" thing that will stand up over time. And then, maybe the only bright spot: you're gathering a wealth of scarcely believable stories, if you ever decide to start writing mic reviews, these tales are priceless.

Which takes me back to... relationships. I do what I do and support my lifestyle, pay my bills, and add a bit of kit now and again, by (1) building relationships with clients and (2) providing better service and outcomes than they had hitherto experienced. One feeds the other: i.e., doing a nice job on a donated church musical play gig (my church) 10 years ago, with an "overkill" board (Soundcraft Series Two with 128 programmable mutes for setting sequential one-punch mute scenes during tech rehearsal) has led to an annual job with a church member who teaches at a private school, generating well over $20,000 in business over the past six years... and they've already booked me for next year's show. That has also led to relationships with two other private schools... and on it goes.

Sometimes the gig is the reward for the work we put into building the relationship.

HB

[kstrauss]

Originally Posted by Corran

A large gig I had gets cancelled one week out. I get a call from the person who made that call (high school music director). He complains that my (agreed upon months ago) rate was too high. I tell him that the job cost that much because XYZ...

Also, I did the job last year and everyone positively loved the recording. I also did it for basically the same rate.

I think this post sums up classical music recording today. There is basically no market and I do not think it is possible to make a decent living doing it any more. You have to realize that for most groups recording is a luxury. The $200 it might cost might literally be impossible for them. So if your clientele consists of high schools and community groups, you will never be able to build a sustainable business.

I think that it's very easy for us to get seduced by our equipment and ability to make fine sounding recordings. In most cases (at least for the kind of clientele mentioned above) the recording is the least important aspect of the performance and is easily jettisoned. We may think that it is a worthwhile expense for them, after all we are the professionals and know how to do it right. But the truth is, that does not matter. Can they afford the recording or not?

I think that for some of the seasoned pros here who remember a time when it was possible to make a living recording classical music, this is a sad state of affairs, but for the younger folks, you need to be realistic about your career. We all want certain things – a house, a decent car, retirement. The question you need to ask yourself is will my business model allow me to achieve my goals? Or are you doing it because you enjoy it and you'll deal with the future later.

[loujudson]

Good points, but just to mention it - I have one client, a community chorus supported by grants who do broadway and pop tunes, hires me twice a year for the Spring and Fall concerts to do sound reinforcment, multitrack recording, and mxing to their taste for half a month's rent. Only takes me two days, one live and one mixing at home, and they order CDs for all 75 members and put some tracks on their website.

So it i possible, but it is only one client, only twice a year. Most of what I do is live sound, and wouldn't mind a couple more of these a year.

L

[charles maynes]

The other route around this is to start offering finished goods- IE to be able to sell CD's or better yet DVD's of performances- The money in that is actually not horrible- and then instead of getting the money from the group, you offer to give them a small percentage of the revenue from the endeavor- Generally you can set up a table and take orders for the product at the performance- if it is a school band or something you will definitely make sales. If you work other schools, you can sell all of the schools performances at each performance.

Here in SoCal there are quite a few folks doing that with some success- the key is zero outlay from the group....It costs them nothing if the thing is not profitable.

[Corran]

That's a possibility (that I have/am exploring), but the problem is copyright. If one were to build their business around selling CD's, you would think eventually a composer or agency would get wind of it and you could be in serious trouble.

Now personally, I think selling CD's of a band concert should be under the "Fair Use" policy. The students/parents buy it as an "archival" recording, and the student was personally involved in the music-making. If a band director is allowed to have an archival CD, as would an orchestra soloist, why can't every one of the musicians in a performance get one too? It's not like the CD is being put on Amazon for public consumption.

That's probably fodder for a whole other thread though.

[AfterViewer]

This thread has been an excellent read. thumbsup