Need advice on recording Piano

[Dpcon]

This is my first post here so let me start by saying it seems to me a whole lot of folks here know what they're talking about. I'm a composer (not a great engineer) with a modest home studio yet a very nice Yamaha C7 (7' 6".) My questions are:

1. What suggestions for preamps for a pure classical sound (in medium and high price ranges.) What for Rock/Pop records?

2. I have TL2 414's which I like and put close to the hammers but not directly over them. Would a stero pair of room mic's be helpful (what mic's that doen't cost a ton?) It's a rather large area and the piano does sound great in the room.

3. Would preamp to Apogee PSX100SE to DA98 be a good route? I have Digital Performer on a G5 but the CPU is only a few feet from the piano so fan noise prevents going to disk.

Thanks

[gainreduction]

First, there's a lot of good reading here:

mixmag article about recording piano

To the questions...

1. GML or Millennia pres sound great on piano. A lot of other choices aswell but these come to mind first. Different sounds for different styles has more to do with how you mike the instrument and what instrument it is. A C7 is a great pop/rock grand IMO. You can get a more mellow, classical sound out of it by miking from a distance and round it off a bit with eq. However I'm under the impression that classical pianists prefer Steinway and Boesendorfer for a fuller and more "round" sound. The C7 is brighter, thinner and more "spikey".

2. 414's should work well. Some people like DPA mics on piano (very clean), some like ribbons (mellow)... Too many choices, any quality mic could do the job. However, if you add room mics, be sure to check for phase issues. Experiment.

3. The Apogee sounds good. What your recording medium is, that is up to you and what you need it for. If your computer is too noisy, there are solutions to that aswell. Iso-box, screens, machine room...

Happy recording, I want a grand piano too !

[Dpcon]

I was thinking about the Millennia actually. Which model are you referring too? ST11?

By DPA you mean dynamic?

Will going into a D98 effect the sound if the conversion is done with the Apogee? I would then transfer digitally to hard disk.

I know that most C7 sound exactly as you said. Mine is more even sounding through the registers and not as bright as most. Sounds sort of like a Steinway which is why I bought it. They emulated certain Steinway features this model year 1996.

Thanks for good info.

[mds]

DPA is a microphone company...they make ultra flat and clean mics. They're used quite a bite for classical recording.

I think the main thing I'd recommend for getting a classical sound out of your piano is to pull the mics off the hammers. Close micing a piano gets more of a pop/jazz sorta tone. For classical piano you'll want to play with backing the mics off the strings. How much has a lot to do with the room, but I'd start with a few feet back. Play with stereo coincident techniques such as XY and ORTF and see how it sounds.

Using the apogee into the da98 should work great and does solve the computer noise issue. I wouldn't buy a da98 as a solution, but if you already have one, then go for it.

Mike

[bpatural]

I've used GML pres with 414s for great clean piano sounds...for rock type stuff 414s work, but maybe try some neve pres going through some tube limiters (ADL maybe) to get a little pumping.
-brian

[jnorman]

it sounds like you are trying to record classical material, so i will base my response on that assumption. if you are doing pop/rock, disregard these comments.

i use a millennia media HV3D - perfect preamp for all types of classical applications, pure and transparent, and the build quality is outstanding.

414s are very useable mics. however, for classical work, i really recommend that you try pulling the mics out into the room rahter than trying to close-mic the piano over the strings. that works for pop, but is not typically the sound you want for classical. i would try the 414s both as a spaced pair in omni about 10-12" apart, and perhaps 6 feet out from the instrument, and also as a blumlein pair about 6 feet out. this works even if your room isnt so great. in a big live hall, you may need to be a bit closer to avoid too much reverb. moving the mics out like this helps solidify the enormous range of the piano, and avoids the 50 foot-wide piano effect you hear in so many recordings that literally drives me crazy.

best of luck.

[Improv]

We have a C7 that is quite mellow as well, and while I don't use 414's (generally I go for Soundelux U99's or ADK A51's) I'm sure they would sound fine. I do an ORTF setup about a foot away from the open side, usually perpendicular to the soundboard (though I'll often angle them down a bit for more "pop"). I'll skew the mics towards the hammers for a brighter, top-heavier sound, and towards the bass strings for... well, more of that

If I want a more dramatic stereo image, then I'll start experimenting with hovering the two mics parallel to the strings in a wide spread... or perhaps over the hammers... but out in the room is MUCH more appropriate for your task.

I don't do much classical, so I usually opt for API 512c's or Fearn VT-2 for pres... not exactly clean units. But shit, do they sound big! I love the sound of a golden C7...

[6X2]

For the 'classical' sort of stuff, I'd take the mics further, try a loose ORTF around the curve, about half a foot to a foot away, pointing slightly down, and DO try the 414s as omnis even at close distance. The difference in frequency response is dramatic.

Best of luck.

6x2

[Dpcon]

Very very helpful. I will try the above mic techniques.

These recordings will vary from Classical to Jazz for the main. For Rock/Jazz I will move up to the hammers more. Will the Millennia's still be okay for rock? Or will I have a dramatic difference with another pre? The GML's better in that case? Also if I do some rock guitar are the Millennia's too clean? I have a DBX 586 - is that thing worth even using on anything?

ORTF =?

Yes I do have a DA98 (and a couple 38's which have almost zero hours and for sale btw.)

Thanks for chiming in,

Dave

[6X2]

Originally Posted by Dpcon

ORTF =?

Originally Posted by Rane Professional Audio Reference

ORTF (Office de Radiodiffusion -- Television Francaise) An initialism formed from the name of the French national broadcasting system, who designed a stereo microphone recording technique known as the ORTF method. The technique uses two cardioid microphones with a spacing of 17 cm between the microphone diaphragms, and with an 110° angle between the capsules. This technique reproduces stereo cues similar to those used by the human ear to perceive directional information in the horizontal plane. The spacing of the microphones emulates the distance between the human ears, and the angle between the two directional microphones emulates the shadow effect of the human head. The ORTF stereo technique provides the recording with a wider stereo image than X-Y stereo while still preserving good mono information.

Rane professional audio reference. Never leave home without it. :D

P.S. http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=16668 :D

6x2

[the1Hub]

i usu c414 on piano all the time. for jazz/rock ect i like th place one mic about 3in into the piano from the hammers and about 7-12in up in cardiod (sub cardiods better but the 414 dont do that patter.) the second mic i place over the crossing low strings about 2-3 feedt into the piano from the hammers at about the same hieght as the first mic. then pan them from the view of the performer. its a nice sound with good attack and presence and lots of big bottom. for classical i like to mike from the perpective of the audience member, ORTF or M/S usualy dose a nice job. as for mike pres i like millenia media HV3's and audio upgrades high speed pre.

[Dpcon]

Very cool. I'll have to brush up on my French.

So the Milennia ST11 are full channels and the HV3's are preamps only with both pieces sharing the same preamp? In other words I can't EQ with the HV3's in which case I would EQ after the fact?

Thinking I can hold my cost down with the HV3's and still get what I'm after. Anyone want to talk me out of that?

Thanks again for golden info here.

Dave


If anyone wants to know a little about species counterpoint or a good Mozart piano concerto I'll be happy to oblige.

[seedee701]

there's nothing more reasonable than getting a hv-3d.

as for getting the mics:
i would try to find mics that complement the sound of your instrument. get softer mics if your instrument is on the hard side, get harder mics if your instrument is on the mellow/solfter side. in my opinion this depends more on how it is maintained/played/tuned than what brand it is brand.
there are many mics that work. among others i used tlm170 and even coles4038, but i must admit i'm probably a softie

do you miss anything from your piano? do you play that c7 because you can't afford a steinway or because you like the sound? i recently recorded both a steinway concert grand and a yamaha c7 and i must admit, that i preferred the end result on the yamaha by far.

[ncCountryMike]

I've got some TL-2's and I like them alot. However if you can get your hands on a pair of 414 EB's, I've found those to work rather well on piano especially since they've got the C12 capusle in them. As far as mic position, if your room is especially not suitable for distant miking, you might try putting your mics slightly lower that the lid of the piano about a foot out. I've gotten some pretty good sounds this way on a C7 and putting the mics there will help give you more of the sound similar to putting some room mics out but without so much of the pop/rock sound that you get right up next to the hammers. But as always, with miking stereo, just be sure to check your phase or you'll more than likely be pleasantly dissapointed with your sound.

[Dpcon]

I got the C7 cause it sounded incredible (my tech tunes 50 in the LA area and rates mine in the top five.) I would love a vintage Steinway but I'm not missing having one.

I thought the TL2's had the C12 capsule? Seems I've heard that over and over. They will have to do for now because I need a preamp more than anything.

I will experiment with all the mic placements mentioned. Nice to get feedback from pro's.

Thanks again,

Dave

[ncCountryMike]

They do have "C12" capsules but they are remakes... close enough but if you can find the EB's that are old enough... they've got vintage c12 capsules...

[James Lehmann]

I'm almost embarrased to post my amateurish recording efforts on this distinguished Forum but what the hell... it might be of some interest to you.

Here's the sound of my friend playing his Yamaha C6, miked up with a pair of Microtech Gefell M300's in ORTF config up near the hammers, running through a Metric Halo ULN-2 pre-amp straight into my Powerbook. Someday My Prince Will Come The pianist likes a tight jazzy sound with some percussive qualities, and as the room sounds crap anyway, we chose to mic close-in rather than more distant; this also perhaps favoured cardioids rather than omnis, but I'd like to try out my little Avenson STO-2 omni pair on that piano one day.

Please observe all the usual excuses about not having enough time to set-up properly and the fact that this was one rather hurried take, mistakes and all!