Are Mackie VLZ mixers good enough for classical?

[rumleymusic]

The newer VLZ-series suffer from some build-quality issues IMO. I had to return an 802 because of a 3 dB level mismatch between the left and right channels.

Mackie does suffer from the cost cutting Chinese manufacturing trend unfortunately. My 802 doesn't have the same problems as yours luckily, it is pretty reliable.

[Ozpeter]

I recorded the Mozart Horn Concertos for Olympia using the original version of the VLZ. I recall a review saying something like "this would have been the best ever version of the Horn Concertos, except X released his version the same week". (Can't now remember the name of X who was the horn wunderkind of the day).

Amazon.com: Mozart: Complete Horn Concertos: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Roy Goodman, Herman Jeuissen, Herman Jeurissen, Giorgio Mereu: Music

However, what was fine fifteen (?) years ago might not be that good in comparison with others now. But junk it isn't. (Wasn't).

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

I recorded the Mozart Horn Concertos for Olympia using the original version of the VLZ. I recall a review saying something like "this would have been the best ever version of the Horn Concertos, except X released his version the same week". (Can't now remember the name of X who was the horn wunderkind of the day).

Amazon.com: Mozart: Complete Horn Concertos: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Roy Goodman, Herman Jeuissen, Herman Jeurissen, Giorgio Mereu: Music

However, what was fine fifteen (?) years ago might not be that good in comparison with others now. But junk it isn't. (Wasn't).

Sounds great. Ordered.(I always try to order things I know forum members have done) your post just proves that they are competent. Even the series 1...

[d_fu]

I've made recordings with the original 1202's preamps (pre-VLZ)... If they don't sound as great as my current recordings , it's likely to be a result of the number, choice, and placement of microphones more than the preamp quality per se, I would suspect... Still carry the 1202 around at the bottom of the case I keep my mics in, as last resort...

[RobAnderson]

Maybe my 1202 didn't age well or something - the mic amps sound a little muffled to me. It's not that they are terribly colored or noisy, just not the "ultra high-fi" sound you can get with the good stuff.

Decent recordings have been made with less.

I guess I should mention that I had to retire the Micro-series 1202 and replace it with a VLZ-3 version a few years ago because the right main output became intermittent. Buying a new one was cheaper than fixing the old one.

As for the 802, it is not unreliable, and it does its job nicely: it's light to carry and fits easily into a small backpack - a great little mixer with some remarkable features packed into a very small footprint.

It's just not very precisely calibrated.

What do you expect for $200?

[Don S]

Glad to see this thread. Some of my best recordings were made using my 1402 VLZ pro. I've been tempted for lower budget jobs (lately) to use it as a summing amp to a SD702.

[Dave Ferris]

Fwiw, (it's Jazz not Classical) the first track (Joy Spring) on my MySpace page was made with my 1202 VLZ, pair of DPA 4011s > a Marantz CDR300 CD recorder.

The gain's a little lower on this but same chain
Beatrice 3.mp3 - DivShare

Disclaimer---I'm not an engineer.

[roonsbane]

I once started a gig with the back bay choral using my Millenia HV3. The church was on Newbury st. in Boston. One block away from the radio towers on top of the prudential building, an area well known for it's RF issues. I could not get rid of some bad RF until I switched to my spare first generation VLZ 1402 that I used to keep with me. The RF was switch off like a light bulb and the recording came off fine considering I was very limited in where I could put mic stands, (the much bigger issue). I have since recorded many multiple mic jazz gigs in a church on the next block using my ATI 8MX2 without any issues.
Cameron

[John Brook]

So are you saying that I got stuck with a bad Mackie, or you just got lucky?

[roonsbane]

I am saying for me, something changed for the better when it comes to RF rejection. It could be as simple as a change in input impedance. If I remember correctly, I was using my Neumann U89's with a transformer plugged into two different preamps with no transformer. Come to think of it U89's KM84's and KM86's are really the only mics I have gotten RF on during literally thousands of live recordings.

There is a place I have done broadcast's here in Minnesota where I could not use any dynamic mics due to two specific bad dimmer packs on the lights. Using 421's, 441's, D112, EV408's, Beyer M160's, SM7's, I would get bad humming when they weren't full on or full off. Replace them with any condenser mic and all is good.
Cameron

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by John Brook

So are you saying that I got stuck with a bad Mackie, or you just got lucky?

sounds like you got a bad one...stories of great results with Mackie mixers(in spite the constant badmouthing them here on GearCasteSystem Central ) are in abundance.

If they were not L7...Marc Aubort wouldn't go near them.

allmusic ((( Marc Aubort > Credits )))

[Scottn]

I've been using an 802 VLZ3 for a while and the preamps are pretty nice sounding for the price. (Obvious Fact: they won't be in the same league of boutique preamps, but still, they do the job.) I always keep the EQ flat when recording. They would have to be my favorite Mackie preamps. I've used their other Mackie preamps and they just don't match up. Plus weren't VLZ's designed for mainly recording purposes?

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris

Fwiw, (it's Jazz not Classical) the first track (Joy Spring) on my MySpace page was made with my 1202 VLZ, pair of DPA 4011s > a Marantz CDR300 CD recorder.

The gain's a little lower on this but same chain
Beatrice 3.mp3 - DivShare

Disclaimer---I'm not an engineer.

Very nice playing, nice piano sound. The only distracting thing is the noise which still isn't very offensive spectrum wise but still way to high IMO.


/Peter

[Dave Ferris]

Hey thanks. Appreciated.

You know that's exactly what Rich Breen (Jazz engineer extraordinaire) said to me regarding the noise. He also said it was "right heavy" about 2 DB.

He said I probably had the gain staging on the 1202 VLZ and levels on the CD recorder mismatched.

That's why the disclaimer

[John Brook]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

sounds like you got a bad one...stories of great results with Mackie mixers(in spite the constant badmouthing them here on GearCasteSystem Central ) are in abundance.

If they were not L7...Marc Aubort wouldn't go near them.

allmusic ((( Marc Aubort > Credits )))

I'm not bashing the Mackie, even if it comes across that way. I got a lot of great recordings out of it. It's just that every once and a while, I got a nice radio station, florescent lights and coke machine noises. The later had to come through the PS; who knows how the former got into the machine????

(Added): Now that I think about it, it was when I was doing classical recordings with the gain turned up, not when I was doing close miking. FWIW.

[mathieujm]

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris

Fwiw, (it's Jazz not Classical) the first track (Joy Spring) on my MySpace page was made with my 1202 VLZ, pair of DPA 4011s > a Marantz CDR300 CD recorder.

The gain's a little lower on this but same chain
Beatrice 3.mp3 - DivShare

Disclaimer---I'm not an engineer.

Great piano sound and playing, but where does all that noise come from ? If it's from the 1202, sure this should not be used for classical recording.

JMM

EDIT : I didn't see your previous answer

[rumleymusic]

I'm not bashing the Mackie, even if it comes across that way. I got a lot of great recordings out of it. It's just that every once and a while, I got a nice radio station, florescent lights and coke machine noises. The later had to come through the PS; who knows how the former got into the machine????

The only noise and frequency pickup problems I usually get are from using unbalanced or flimsy cables. In any analog mixer there is also a chance AC noise or foreign transformer noise will get into the system. It is a common problem that usually can be solved by using a power conditioner.

[GYMusic]

Originally Posted by JEGG

Yes, Mackies are just fine with a couple of caveats. Gain structure is absolutely key. Follow directions exactly. Everyone wants to run these boards way too hot! Failure to employ good gain structure will result in compromised recordings. OTH, the Mackies can sound very open and easy if they're used correctly. Let the thing breathe.

I agree. Especially if you use the EQ in an additive way... pull back the gain... you can hear it start clipping (which can be a good thing in some instances).

[recordinghopkins]

I have a 1604 VLZ PRO, and it sounds great with dynamic mics, but the input impedance is pretty low and it makes condensers sound harsh.

If I am not mistaken, the 1604's input impedance is around 1100Ω. For 200-300Ω condensers, you would want at least a 2000Ω preamp input. From what I understand, the rule of thumb for target input impedance should be on the order of ten times the mic's impedance.

Anyway, regardless of why, I don't like the sound of condensers with my 1604's preamps.

[Tommy-boy]

Originally Posted by recordinghopkins

I have a 1604 VLZ PRO, and it sounds great with dynamic mics, but the input impedance is pretty low and it makes condensers sound harsh.

If I am not mistaken, the 1604's input impedance is around 1100Ω. For 200-300Ω condensers, you would want at least a 2000Ω preamp input. From what I understand, the rule of thumb for target input impedance should be on the order of ten times the mic's impedance.

Anyway, regardless of why, I don't like the sound of condensers with my 1604's preamps.

I have the same observations on my 1604. Condensers sound leans toward being harsh and even brittle. But the 57s hold up just fine.

[rumleymusic]

The VLZ-3 mixers have an impedance of 3400ohms on the mic ins. Enough to bridge mics with higher output impedance's.

[recordinghopkins]

I just got out my manual for the 1604 VLZ PRO and double checked the input impedance. Turns out that it is 1300Ω, not 1100Ω as I stated. Still, the same problem with condensers arises. It's nice to see that Mackie has made this change in the VLZ-3.

[mikerphone]

Originally Posted by roonsbane

There is a place I have done broadcast's here in Minnesota where I could not use any dynamic mics due to two specific bad dimmer packs on the lights. Using 421's, 441's, D112, EV408's, Beyer M160's, SM7's, I would get bad humming when they weren't full on or full off. Replace them with any condenser mic and all is good.
Cameron

I once recorded a large piece for the New Music America festival at the Brooklyn Academy of Music, in the Carey Playhouse (now a movie theatre, I think.) There was a subway electrical substation directly below the stage, and all dynamic mics produced (or induced) hum. We had to use all condensor mics on that stage. It was a 40-some channel mix, with two drummers, and not a single dynamic.

Michael DeMark

[recordinghopkins]

Originally Posted by mikerphone

I once recorded a large piece for the New Music America festival at the Brooklyn Academy of Music, in the Carey Playhouse (now a movie theatre, I think.) There was a subway electrical substation directly below the stage, and all dynamic mics produced (or induced) hum. We had to use all condensor mics on that stage. It was a 40-some channel mix, with two drummers, and not a single dynamic.

Michael DeMark

sheesh, have fun in post with that one!

[mikerphone]

There was no post - straight to 2-track.

[recordinghopkins]

wow, do you remember what condensers you used for close miking the drums?

[DannyL]

A few years ago there were several Mackie desks in OB vans around the USA. I discovered that the VLZ mic preamps were extremely subject to RF interference because of the low impedance of the inputs. V ery L ow
Z impedance. On short cable runs there was no problem, but on runs in excess of 60 ft..... Ouch! Considering that most stadium announce booths are more than 2500 cable feet away from the mic pre....well, we used a lot of battery powered mic pre's

The line inputs seemed okay. The EQ was not great.

Danny

[studentjohn36]

i wonder if anyone A/B'ed a test between the 802 and the new Soundcraft babymixer with the GB30's....

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by mikerphone

I once recorded a large piece for the New Music America festival at the Brooklyn Academy of Music, in the Carey Playhouse (now a movie theatre, I think.) There was a subway electrical substation directly below the stage, and all dynamic mics produced (or induced) hum. We had to use all condensor mics on that stage. It was a 40-some channel mix, with two drummers, and not a single dynamic.

Michael DeMark

do you have a link to the recording, where I may purchase it?

[Teddy Ray]

I also want to say that the WENDT X4 is a phenomenal mixer. Very clean, nice sound, and very, very flexible.

God, I miss mine.