Large-ish live recording challenge

[AV_Dub]

I need help with computer specs and interfaces for a rather large, live multitracking scenario.

I know this is not for a remote/portable recording setup, but you guys are the most experienced with what works. (and absolutely must work flawlessly at all times as much as is possible)

Here is what:

Will need to record 40 channels from direct outs on a 48 channel soundcraft spirit board. Also need to output up to 12 tracks of pre-recorded audio to the sound board's stereo channel in's for sending to stage monitors / house (for click track, etc.)

Computer needs to output timecode to mediashout on a separate computer, and timecode to a stand alone dvd, and MIDI to control the light board. No adats planned at this time.

All of the hardware is in place and working, except for the computer / DAW.

I'm a mac guy and it would be a no-brainer using a MOTU 2408 mk3 with added 24 I/O's. (and a 424 PCIe card)

But I am being required to run it all on a windows machine, and have heard about windows driver issues. Has anyone successfully used this much MOTU hardware on a PC reliably? or M-Audio Delta? (windows driver issues also)

And what would be your choice of computer specs?

I know it's a lot to ask but I need help!


Thank you.

[bishopthomas]

Well, first of all, I would not even consider the possibility of using the same machine for record and playback, especially not the tasks that you are needing to accomplish. This sounds like an install, but if it's a one time event then you will most certainly want to rent (at least the recorder). By the way, MediaShout accepts time code now? I haven't used it in years, it must have come a long way.

[AV_Dub]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Well, first of all, I would not even consider the possibility of using the same machine for record and playback, especially not the tasks that you are needing to accomplish. This sounds like an install, but if it's a one time event then you will most certainly want to rent (at least the recorder). By the way, MediaShout accepts time code now? I haven't used it in years, it must have come a long way.

Thanks for the response. I can use 2 adats for playback instead. Yes it is a somewhat permanent install, at least all of the interface equipment. Computer will be moved to prepare events in a studio.

If I can get tracking and sync working that will be most of the battle. I didn't know mediashout had no timecode sync. I've kinda over-shoulder seen mediashout being operated, and saw a timecode running on screen.. I just downloaded a demo of the latest version so we'll see if it's got it.

As far as building the computer, I could build a mac that would launch the space shuttle.. but Windows I need suggestions as to core type, ram, mobo, bus speed, pci type. I don't want to build a killer system only to find out there are no drivers for it!

Or I can take your suggestion and get 5 adats for recording, using the computer for playback. Either way, I'll need at least 12 channel d/a converters for output to the board. Doing it that way I'm leaning toward 2 M-Audio Delta 1010's which would handle 16 analog outs, the sync and midi.

[AV_Dub]

I understand everyones reluctance in recommending a computer setup. But if anyone has experience with the kind of things I'm doing, Feel Free to post up!

I guess I just need to know a good foundation to start building the computer.

[Audiop]

Forgive me if I'm missing something but.. perhaps you could use a Mac running XP?

Or are they dead set on windows on a PC without the Mac logo? :-)


/Peter

[DCtoDaylight]

I know it goes against the DIY ethic (which my wife will testify runs deep in my veins, too!), but you might think about ordering a custom Windows machine from one of the suppliers that specialize in audio computers. I know Sweetwater does this, and I'm sure there are plenty of other places. Yes, you'll pay a bit more, but you'd get certification that it would work with the setup you have, and you'd be freed up to think about other aspects of the project.

Might not work for you, but I figured I'd toss the idea out - all my hands-on knowledge is on the Mac side, too.

[AV_Dub]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Forgive me if I'm missing something but.. perhaps you could use a Mac running XP?

Or are they dead set on windows on a PC without the Mac logo? :-)


/Peter

you got it. they are dead set on a pc without a mac. One of the techs is anti-mac for who knows what reason. They put together their own $30,000 network with all Pc's. They are worried about a mac being secure.

and no matter how much I try...

[AV_Dub]

Originally Posted by DCtoDaylight

I know it goes against the DIY ethic (which my wife will testify runs deep in my veins, too!), but you might think about ordering a custom Windows machine from one of the suppliers that specialize in audio computers. I know Sweetwater does this, and I'm sure there are plenty of other places. Yes, you'll pay a bit more, but you'd get certification that it would work with the setup you have, and you'd be freed up to think about other aspects of the project.

Might not work for you, but I figured I'd toss the idea out - all my hands-on knowledge is on the Mac side, too.

I'll check out sweetwater. But I get the feeling that they want to build one on my recommendations. I've been researching audio interface options but no one has mentioned a high end PC that works with the available audio hardware and drivers. I can't be the only one doing this!

Thank you everyone.

[7rojo7]

X48?

[Roland]

Perhaps you can explain the scenario in a little more detail, like what the performance is, where, is it a live performance or a closed session, what sort of instrumentation etc and it will be easier to recommend a good solution?

Regards


Roland

[mixedupsteve]

If I were to build a recording computer right now I would use an Intel board with an Intel main chip and CPU. A dual or quad core would be fine.
2 Harddrives. One for the operating system and one for the data. You might consider an external esata drive for the data also. 7200 RPM + is a must. Use XP. I'm sure you can still get it if you order it.
I think a small computer for the playback and minor editing would be good too.

[AV_Dub]

Originally Posted by 7rojo7

X48?

48 would take care of most performances.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by AV_Dub

48 would take care of most performances.

I think he was referring to the Tascam X48:
TASCAM

[AV_Dub]

Originally Posted by Roland

Perhaps you can explain the scenario in a little more detail, like what the performance is, where, is it a live performance or a closed session, what sort of instrumentation etc and it will be easier to recommend a good solution?

Regards


Roland

This is all live through an audion driven, flown JBL system.

The largest live performance i've run sound for at this venue:

Main Mix Board:

Full orchestra with drum kit, all mic'ed with many SM-81's, SM 57's (around 20 channels)

Rock band on stage full drum kit, synth, bass, acoustic guitar, electric guitar using Avalon pre on bass, Di's and sm57's. AT drum mic set, shure kick mic, 2 SM-81 overheads.

4 backup singers/soloists using sennheiser handheld FM wireless

2 narrators using sennheiser handheld FM wireless

1 shure fm wireless handheld announcement mic

1 sennheiser FM wireless bodypack lapel mic

Full choir mic'ed with 4 oktava large diaphram condensers and 4 white hanging 48v clip mics (don't remember the make)

Side Car Mix Board:

8 AT wireless AM bodypack lapel mic's for actors

1-8 track adat with click track, and 6 channels of pre-recorded choir using 6 Nuemann U-87 tube mics through joe meek pre's. (recorded choir was mixed with live performance. It was HUGE lol) I sent the adat click track to the conductor via comtec for cueing the start of the songs. So when the recorded choir came in it was in sync with the live choir.

1 tascam 4-track reel-to-reel cueing added media music/sound effects (only way to cue perfect timing with actors. Through my headphones I would position the tape by rotating the reels back and forth to set up exact location of next cue) No sampling keyboard was available which would have been much easier.

2 CD players for cuing and crossfading canned background music.


I sent a live stereo feed of the whole thing out to the local cable company (Jones Intercable at the time, now Time-Warner) remote van in the parking lot. Too bad we didn't have a recording board for that. They got my live house mix.

There were a few more things going on, but I somehow made it through 8 performances without a glitch. Not sure if there will be any more shows of this size but you never know. Right now and every week the performances are requiring around half of those inputs.



Ok, HERES where I am now:

Now to save cost, they are using pre-recorded mutitrack for much of the music. However some live musicians are mixed in (sending a click track to their monitors) along with a live choir, and 3-5 soloists/back up singers.

Hopefully I can sync my multitrack DAW to their mediashout computer. If not I'll need a program similar to mediashout that uses time code. (TOD code won't be needed)

... If I didn't love this job so much it would really suck
JHayes

[AV_Dub]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

I think he was referring to the Tascam X48:
TASCAM

Wow, nice price for what it does..

Thank you, that will work for recording. for multitrack playback and cueing I still need a decent windows DAW with at least 16 analog ins-outs. 24bit 96k would be fine.

[AV_Dub]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

If I were to build a recording computer right now I would use an Intel board with an Intel main chip and CPU. A dual or quad core would be fine.
2 Harddrives. One for the operating system and one for the data. You might consider an external esata drive for the data also. 7200 RPM + is a must. Use XP. I'm sure you can still get it if you order it.
I think a small computer for the playback and minor editing would be good too.

thank you Steve. my concern is having enough Comp to handle what ever comes up, and that sounds like a good foundation to start with.

I prefer analog for absolute failsafe reliability (ala Nagra) but computers have come a long way.

[AV_Dub]

thank you 7rojo7 and bishopthomas, the more I look at the Tascam X48 the more it looks perfect for me. It appears to have every feature I need to do it all. 24bit 96k, Automated, sync, in's and out's...

looks like I'm not the only one doing this after all.

Scored?

[bishopthomas]

If the X48 looks like a viable and affordable solution then definitely go for it over a computer. You can take the external drive (Firewire or USB) with you to your mix machine, import the wav files, and do your thing. Couldn't be simpler (and still as stable).

As far as MediaShout, check out the forums MediaShout Legacy Forums It's no longer on the web site so I'm not sure if it's still active or not; a Google search brought it up. I also found a churchmedia.net forum: MediaShout - The Church Media Community with a MediaShout sub forum. Maybe you'll get some answers there. If not, you can always call the support line: 866.857.1292.

[AV_Dub]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

If the X48 looks like a viable and affordable solution then definitely go for it over a computer. You can take the external drive (Firewire or USB) with you to your mix machine, import the wav files, and do your thing. Couldn't be simpler (and still as stable).

As far as MediaShout, check out the forums MediaShout Legacy Forums It's no longer on the web site so I'm not sure if it's still active or not; a Google search brought it up. I also found a churchmedia.net forum: MediaShout - The Church Media Community with a MediaShout sub forum. Maybe you'll get some answers there. If not, you can always call the support line: 866.857.1292.

Thank you. I'll check out the forums. BTW, this is going in a First Assembly Church in So Cal.

[hbphotoav]

If you have Shout questions to which you can't get timely answers, PM me and I'll connect you to one of the stakeholders. He's been there since early in the century.

[AV_Dub]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

If you have Shout questions to which you can't get timely answers, PM me and I'll connect you to one of the stakeholders. He's been there since early in the century.

thanx, i've visited the forums and there is no mention of syncable timecode. I guess it just has reference code for locating manually.

I downloaded the free trial but no evaluation code was given. I contacted the "live" help chat yesterday. No response to get the evaluation activation code yet.

If there is no timecode, I'll need another program that uses it.

[mixedupsteve]

AV Dub,
When you decide to replace your reel to reel I strongly recommend Qlab. Even the free version is awesome! (mac only)

[AV_Dub]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

AV Dub,
When you decide to replace your reel to reel I strongly recommend Qlab. Even the free version is awesome! (mac only)

Thank you. Qlab looks great. I use mac in my studio,
but i'm stuck with windows for this.

I may use this on my Mac as backup to the X48 setup. lol, I'll plug in my "unsecure" OSX box and blow their little windows minds someday. lol

actually, Last week I ran my mac with digital performer through M-audio 1010's to cue the performances. They were impressed and asked me to set up something more permanent. Alas on a windows box instead...

[Thomas W. Bethe]

One question.

I assume when you say "monitors" you are referring to in ear monitors and not floor monitors when you say you are "going to send a click track to the monitors." I don't think sending a click track to a floor monitor would be too good for the over all sound of the performance.

Sounds like big adventure. Best of luck and tell your tech that we run a 5 PC - 4 MAC environment and it works great with networking.

[AV_Dub]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

One question.

I assume when you say "monitors" you are referring to in ear monitors and not floor monitors when you say you are "going to send a click track to the monitors." I don't think sending a click track to a floor monitor would be too good for the over all sound of the performance.

Sounds like big adventure. Best of luck and tell your tech that we run a 5 PC - 4 MAC environment and it works great with networking.

Best I could do is convince them to get a new Mac/Win box. But it looks like a Tascam X48 is perfect for the situation. I've recommended the Tascam so we'll see where it goes. Either way I have a lot of cabling and programming to do when it all shows up.

Oh yes, The only musician that gets the click track is the drummer behind plexi and behind the choir. I send the live drum mix (a little kick and snare) to the rest of the stage monitors. The pre-recorded keys, electric lead guitar, acoustic guitar, loops, bass, etc. get sent to all monitors depending on whats needed (or who didn't show up). If there is no live drummer I send the click at low level to conductor' wireless in-ear and all stage monitors just to que the down-beat. Recorded drums take it from there and I mute the click.

There is an in ear monitor system in place but it needs cat5 cabling from the stage mixers up to the board interface. Once thats working the room sound will be awesome. Now if I can just get all the musicians to use pre's/D.I processors.. lol

They sold off a $5000 yamaha electric drum kit because some drummers were screwing up the programming. I wish they hadn't.