Need help with mic upgrade decision

[CGBrian.M]

OK guys, here's the situation. I currently have two pairs of mics: 1) ADK TL (matched pair), and 2) Rode NT5 (matched pair) and I'm possibly looking to upgrade from these.
I haven't used the NT5's in years as I find them horribly colored, muffled, brittle, and lacking refinement. The ADK's have been much better, but can be hard and cold sounding, and noticeably lack smoothness. I do have the option of upgrading the TL's to a better (i.e. smoother, quieter, more refined, etc...) capsule, although it'll run me about $600, which is 75-80% of the original price paid. Not something I'm leaning towards right now.
Instead, I'm considering selling both pairs of mics, and buying something different. I would like to have at least pairs of Cardioids and Omnis, but would be willing to consider a single pair of either if I (or you guys!) feels it would work better for my situation. My budget is no more than $1200, and preferably lower than a $1000

Here are some of my considerations in the order of my current preferences:

1) Oktavamod MK-012 MSP6=$849
2) Audio-Technica AT4051b-49b=$1120
3) Audio-Technica AE5100/AT4022=$845
4) Audio-Technica AT4021/4022=$920
5) Audio-Technica AT4041SP/AT4022=$800
Other options:
1) CAD E100S x2/NT45-O caps for Rode NT5
2) Some Audio-Technica Cardioids/NT45-O caps for NT5

Not sure if the CADs being supercardoid could be a problem as a main pair. Also, as I said, I really don't like the sound of the Rodes, but will be using Omnis less than cardioids.

I only do this as a hobby, and only record classical instruments/ensembles of my and others students in small halls and churches. I play classical guitar (and of course, my students), and would need mics that are quiet.
My sound preferences are for mics that are (mostly) uncolored and not to bright. In reference to the mics I already own, I'm looking for greater smoothness, more depth/reach/imaging, and a little flatter frequency response.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Brian

[BrianHanke]

Check out the Shure KSM141. They are switchable between cardioid and omni and sound quite natural in acoustic music. A new pair goes for around $800.

[jnorman]

of the mics you listed, i can certainly recommend the AT4051s and the AT4022s, both of which i like quite a bit. i have never used the 4049 omni caps, but scott dorsey (kludge) endorses them pretty highly. the AT4021 was a #1 choice on acoustic guitar in a recent extensive mic shootout, so i would guess it is also probably a good affordable alternative for cards.

you can also consider a used pair of km184s for around $900, or a pair of AKG C481s ($900-1000/pr) or C461s ($600-800/pr) for your main card pair - those are all solid professional pieces of kit. for around $725/pr new you shoudl be able to find new beyer MC930s. for affordable omnis, again i liked the at4022s, but for somewhere around that same price range you can also think about the little DPA 4061s (used), which are pretty amazing in the right situation.

[CGBrian.M]

Thanks for the help guys.
Brian, I listened to the KSM141's in this thread: SHURE KSM 137 / 141 audio examples? and felt they sounded very good overall, but still a touch bright, and lacking somewhat in depth. I also listened to those mics and others on Shure's website. I haven't ruled them out completely, but need a little more convincing.

jnorman, I listened to most, if not all, of your samples posted here with the AT4051a's and the one sample with the AT4022. I originally picked the Beyerdynamic MC930's in your "ORTF" shootout, but on subsequent listening, and once level matched, preferred the balance of the AT4051's.
I also listened to all of Audio-Technica's mics on acoustic guitar on their European website: Audio-Technica - Support - Inside Audio - Listening Post
Somewhat poor sounding samples overall (noisy), but you do get a general idea about the sound of each mic.

I've rarely been disappointed with the sound of the modded Oktava's in all the samples I've heard of them, especially considering they go for $849 with matched pairs of all 3 caps. One such good example is here: TestYourMic - Microphone Audio Examples
However, I can also get really good prices on any Audio-Technica mics from a particular dealer. Also, the new CAD E100S is a very intriguing mic, although a little expensive considering you only get one pattern.

In the end, I need to feel like I'm getting a distinct upgrade from my ADK TL's.

Thanks again for the help.

Brian

[Chunky But Funky]

I've been taking a look at these, as a more budget alternative the obvious DPA / Schoeps / Gefell.

Mojave Audio 101 fet

Interchangable omni and cardoid caps, Jensen transformers, etc!

Doug

[CGBrian.M]

Originally Posted by Chunky But Funky

I've been taking a look at these, as a more budget alternative the obvious DPA / Schoeps / Gefell.

Mojave Audio 101 fet

Interchangable omni and cardoid caps, Jensen transformers, etc!

Doug

Doug,

I am indeed looking for the budget alternative to DPA, Schoeps, Sanken, et al
I was aware of David Royer's other mics, but not this one. Thanks for pointing it out to me. These mics are putting me right at my budget limit. I'm usually turned off by the presence of transformers, although I know I shouldn't be, as there seems to be this mantra that transformers add color to the sound automatically. I'm sure that's not true, but...

Brian

[Mike Jasper]

Originally Posted by jnorman

of the mics you listed, i can certainly recommend the AT4051s and the AT4022s, both of which i like quite a bit. i have never used the 4049 omni caps, but scott dorsey (kludge) endorses them pretty highly. the AT4021 was a #1 choice on acoustic guitar in a recent extensive mic shootout, so i would guess it is also probably a good affordable alternative for cards.

I think you're referring to the test I conducted for a Tape Op article. The AT4021 wasn't exactly the number one pick, it was the one picked most often. I asked the 21 panelists to choose the top 15 mics from sound files I made, and yes the AT4021 garnered the most top-15 votes. However, the 15 top mics picked were in no particular order, so it could have been most people's 15th favorite mic for all we know.

The reason I didn't ask them to rank the mics from 1-15 was fear of procrastination— I was afraid only a handful would come in under the article deadline. As it was, only 21 of the 30 people made it on time.

The AT4021 is a pretty damn good mic and I bought a pair of them myself. Still, I'd rather have a pair of Schoeps. But then they cost a bit more than $700 for a new pair.

Jasper

[Teddy Ray]

Audio Technica 4050.

KSM 141

Id happily own nothing but 4050s.

Oktavas ala micheal Joly

[mathieujm]

Did you listen to the samples in this thread ?
Beyer MC930 for classical distant miking

To have a good idea of what could be done as an amateur with a pair of M930 recording classical music

JMM

[CGBrian.M]

Teddy,
I could get a pair of AT4050's for about $900. However, I felt it was to much of a cross-grade from my ADK TL's. Like I said before, I could get really any Audio-Technica mic within my budget. One of the reasons there's so many of them listed above.thumbsup The Michael Joly modded Oktava's are very high on my list. I feel they provide a very good sense of depth/imaging that I simply don't hear from most mics in this price range, and they do so without adding to much color.

mathieujm,
I did listen to that thread when it was first posted. I've liked, but not necessarily loved, the sound of the MC930's in every clip I've heard of them. Ahh...there's so many choices!

Right now, I'm leaning towards buying a pair of CAD E100S' and possibly a matched pair of Naiant Omni's. Joel Patterson, who posts in this forum often, wrote a review of this mic with audio samples in this thread: My review of the new CAD E100S condenser mic I think the violin sample sounds incredible!

Thanks for all the help, and keep the suggestions coming, even though it seriously affects my OCD.

Brian

[matthewd]

Forgive me if this has already come up as I have only skim read the posts so far but we got some MBHO omnis a while back - they seem to be popular in mainland Europe especially in broadcast but rarely heard of in the UK or US as far as I can tell. There is some tie up with ex Schoeps staff I believe and the quality is close to that one would expect from the usual suspects of DPA, Schoeps, Neumann, Sennheiser etc. We had the omnis with the high frequency lift and they served us well until we could afford to upgrade to DPA 4006s. They also do some of the remote compact capsule stuff like CMC5 / KM100 style and the price when we bought them was half way between your Rode / SE Electronics kind of price and the high end.

Matt

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by CGBrian.M

Teddy,
I could get a pair of AT4050's for about $900.

well, if you do, I can almost certainly guarantee that you will find a lot of uses for them.

the aforementioned mbhos are great too.

I also found the beyer m130/m160 to be a dazzling pair that saw a LOT of use. (or two 130s or 2 160s)

Ribbons are really special on acoustic instruments.

[Mike Jasper]

Originally Posted by matthewd

Forgive me if this has already come up as I have only skim read the posts so far but we got some MBHO omnis a while back - they seem to be popular in mainland Europe especially in broadcast but rarely heard of in the UK or US as far as I can tell. There is some tie up with ex Schoeps staff I believe and the quality is close to that one would expect from the usual suspects of DPA, Schoeps, Neumann, Sennheiser etc. We had the omnis with the high frequency lift and they served us well until we could afford to upgrade to DPA 4006s. They also do some of the remote compact capsule stuff like CMC5 / KM100 style and the price when we bought them was half way between your Rode / SE Electronics kind of price and the high end.

Matt

It's the company that's the problem. They don't seem all that interested in doing business with the US. I talked to one of their dealers about getting them to contribute a mic toward the small diaphragm shootout I did for Tape Op and he gave me the contact info but added, "Good luck with that. I rarely hear back from them myself."

I heard nothing.

So there's a good reason MBHO mics aren't more popular in the US.

Jasper

[CGBrian.M]

In addition to what Mike Jasper just said, where you can find them here in the US, they are quite expensive. Not Schoeps expensive, but still getting up there in price, and certainly out of my budget. For instance, it would be cheaper to buy pairs of Beyerdynamic MC930 & MC910's than any combos of MBHO's.

Teddy,
Unfortunately, I am not a fan of ribbon mics. I feel that they add just to much color to the sound. The only one's I've heard examples that I've remotely liked are the stereo ones (SF-24 & R88). Otherwise, they just don't tickle my fancy. Also, I would have to get a phantom powered model as I don't believe my audio interface preamps have enough juice for them to record quiet sources from a distance.

Currently, I'm still waiting to sell my other mics before purchasing new ones.
Thanks again everyone for all the suggestions!

Brian

[Piedpiper]

For your purposes you might consider a Crown SASS-P mkII stereo mic while you still can. They've been discontinued but are still available. You can search her for some posts of mine re: my modified version. The high end can be tailored to suit if know what you're doing.

[t_chance]

Peluso Microphone Lab

I love my Peluso mics, but have not tested them against the 4021's

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by t_chance

Peluso Microphone Lab

I love my Peluso mics, but have not tested them against the 4021's

Which ones? The CMC6s are probably way too bright for the OP's stated preferences, and they're the only ones that would suit his budget except maybe a used pair of P28s.

[CGBrian.M]

Tom,
Pretty much what Piedpiper said. I heard the Cemc6's in a shootout on acoustic guitar and was very disappointed in their harsh, bright sound, especially compared to the AT4021, which I thought were one of the best of the group, and I could actually get the AT's cheaper than the Peluso's.

Piedpiper,
Is the self-noise of the Crown SASS-P MK2 a problem? It seems a little high. In addition, its low sensitivity could also affect the noise, no? The price without the carrying case and accessories is much cheaper (almost cuts it in half!). How much do those items make a difference when say, transporting the mic to remote locations?

Thanks,

Brian

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by CGBrian.M

Tom,
Pretty much what Piedpiper said. I heard the Cemc6's in a shootout on acoustic guitar and was very disappointed in their harsh, bright sound, especially compared to the AT4021, which I thought were one of the best of the group, and I could actually get the AT's cheaper than the Peluso's.

Piedpiper,
Is the self-noise of the Crown SASS-P MK2 a problem? It seems a little high. In addition, its low sensitivity could also affect the noise, no? The price without the carrying case and accessories is much cheaper (almost cuts it in half!). How much do those items make a difference when say, transporting the mic to remote locations?

Thanks,

Brian

I've gutted mine and rebuilt it with premium parts as strictly single ended battery operated, as well as building in a battery operated mic pre. It's way better than stock. The noise floor is a bit high still but mostly hasn't been a problem for me. Transporting it without the case could be a hassle for sure depending on your travel modality. I got mine before they doubled the price and offered it without the case and accessories.

[richgilb]

Originally Posted by CGBrian.M

I would like to have at least pairs of Cardioids and Omnis, but would be willing to consider a single pair of either if I (or you guys!) feels it would work better for my situation. My budget is no more than $1200, and preferably lower than a $1000


Brian

I have been going through the same issues as you, looking for the holy grail of smoothness and clarity and low hiss for classical recording and have been through a few pairs in the last couple of months....and so far my conclusion is:

Hebden HS3010 for the omnis
Lauten Torches for the cardioids

I have tried and been disappointed with Rode NT5s, Peluso CEMC6s, Lauten Torch omnis (the cardioids are amazing) and ironically, the Hebden cardioids are also apparently poor. I will hopefully be trying some Blue Bottle Rocket stage 1 with B4 capsules soon and I hope they will be better than the Hebdens. The Blue mics are not a matched pair though. Fingers crossed.

You'll probably need $1200 plus the cash from selling your old ones though!

[CGBrian.M]

Originally Posted by richgilb

I have been going through the same issues as you, looking for the holy grail of smoothness and clarity and low hiss for classical recording and have been through a few pairs in the last couple of months....and so far my conclusion is:

Hebden HS3010 for the omnis
Lauten Torches for the cardioids

I have tried and been disappointed with Rode NT5s, Peluso CEMC6s, Lauten Torch omnis (the cardioids are amazing) and ironically, the Hebden cardioids are also apparently poor. I will hopefully be trying some Blue Bottle Rocket stage 1 with B4 capsules soon and I hope they will be better than the Hebdens. The Blue mics are not a matched pair though. Fingers crossed.

You'll probably need $1200 plus the cash from selling your old ones though!

Yeah, I hear you. Can't do anything until after I sell my other mics, especially after having just done my taxes (ouch!).

Do check out the CAD E100S. They're LDC's & supercardoid, but seem to sound especially quiet, smooth and transparent, and can be had for $1000 or less in the USA. They're also engineered and built here in the US.

Brian

[didier.brest]

Choicing between Rode, Oktava and Audio-Technica is just a question of personal taste. I think about Rode NT5 with respect to Oktava, like DPA with respect to Schoeps or Neumann. Some people say that DPA is britlle or clinical and Schoeps is musical. Other people say that DPA is more accurate or natural, and that Schoeps, and still more Neumann, are colored.

These takes are from a shootout available on this forum:

Rode NT5

Oktava MK-012 cardioid

Audio-Technica AT4041

NB A single AT4041 is about the same price in Europe like a pair of NT5 or Oktava MK12 with cardio caps.

I did both these more recent takes (mics are 20 cm higher) on yesterday for comparing the NT45-0 omni cap for the NT5 and the MK-12 with its omni cap:

[CGBrian.M]

Didier,

Thanks for posting these! I was just thinking to myself the other day that it would be good to hear some samples of the omni caps for the NT5's.

In your cardioid test, of course, I had already picked the AT4041, as I felt they had the most clarity, definition, and finer articulation to their sound. I had also picked the Rode's last (ha,ha)!

In this test, I found it much harder to choose. I feel the Rode's are smoother, with perhaps a little more definition to their sound, but still have a bit of murkiness and color that I don't care for. I do think these omni caps are a distinct improvement over the cardioids.
The Oktava's I felt smeared sounds together to much, and could also be murky at times. But they also seem to have better transient response-I could hear more fundamentals and sustain.
Thanks again for posting these!

Brian

P.S. Perhaps I should PM this to you, but I read somewhere that you use the Monster Performa 500 mic cables in your tests? I have those same cables, and HATE them. I bought some Planet Waves mic cables with gold contacts, and it's like several sheets of cloth have been removed from over my mics. I did a direct comparison, and both my girlfriend, who's a pianist, and I felt the difference was night and day.

[didier.brest]

Thanks Brian for your comments. Yes I've a pair of Monster Performer 500 staying plugged on my Fearn preamp. But I just ordered a pair of Vovox for replacing them. I hardly believe that it would make a large difference but don't want to miss a chance for improving my recordings.

[CGBrian.M]

Thanks Didier!

Yeah, I was one of these people who always thought to myself that there's noway a mic cable could make a whole lot of difference in the sound, or even a very noticeable one. I first bought my ADK TL's after the Rode NT5's, and noticed some difference in clarity. I then took my ADK's on their first location recording in a decent sounding church and using the Monster cables, and was disappointed with how compressed everything sounded. For another on-location recording after that in a very nice sounding church, I needed much longer mic cables, and went with the Planet Waves cables just thinking that I needed something longer for cheap. I immediately noticed a clear difference in sound using all the same equipment. When I got home and listened back, I couldn't believe the difference. I then did the aforementioned test, and confirmed my suspicions. Who knows, maybe I got some bad cables.

I also forgot to ask before, are your Oktava's modded or stock?

Brian

[didier.brest]

My Oktava are stock, purchased from Oktavaonline. I was in the listening panel of Mike Jasper shootout for Tape Op. Both stock Oktava MC O12 and Rode NT5 were in my blind selection besides the usual suspects (DPA, Schoeps, Neumann).

Another take inspired by this thread. Beyerdynamic M160 and Beyerdynamic M130 in MS.

[Teddy Ray]

7 Omni Mic comparison(piano)

[didier.brest]

Teddy, I remember well this test. The TLM50 was the clear winner for me. It nearly made me order a pair of these very fine mics, which can be seen in the DVDs of the Beethoven's sonata integral by Daniel Barenboim, in Decca placement (see attached drawing). Finally I switch my order to a pair of FLEA50, a clone of the M50, discontinued in the early 70s and replaced in the 90s by the TLM50 and the M150. All the mics in this test are wonderful, but much beyond the budget of Brian. Even the M130-M160 pair that you proposed is three times more expensive than a pair of NT5 or MK-012.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by CGBrian.M

Thanks Didier!

Yeah, I was one of these people who always thought to myself that there's noway a mic cable could make a whole lot of difference in the sound, or even a very noticeable one. I first bought my ADK TL's after the Rode NT5's, and noticed some difference in clarity. I then took my ADK's on their first location recording in a decent sounding church and using the Monster cables, and was disappointed with how compressed everything sounded. For another on-location recording after that in a very nice sounding church, I needed much longer mic cables, and went with the Planet Waves cables just thinking that I needed something longer for cheap. I immediately noticed a clear difference in sound using all the same equipment. When I got home and listened back, I couldn't believe the difference. I then did the aforementioned test, and confirmed my suspicions. Who knows, maybe I got some bad cables.

I also forgot to ask before, are your Oktava's modded or stock?

Brian

Or maybe, just maybe, the acoustics, mic placement and performance which obviously weren't identical in the two recordings could have something to do with it.. :-)


/Peter

[Piedpiper]

I'm very into good cables and Monster is famous among industry insiders for being mostly marketing hype. They are the Bose of cables.