Recording Tuba - What (not) to do!

[tubakid4327]

Howdy All,
I am a student at the Crane School of Music in New York and by my user name you might figure that I play tuba. Anyway, I am one of the recording guys around here. I just completed a project recording a solo tuba and piano accompaniment and thought I would share my results.
I began the project by talking to my professor of tuba to see what his preference in sound for tuba is and also speaking to a few of my contacts around the country about tuba recording. The consensus is this: clean but not dry. Clean as in you can hear each note perfectly even with reverb but not dry enough to actually hear the player tonguing or the valves moving. You get these bad sounds by putting a mic right in the bell or directly in front of the bell at close distances.
I used a stereo pair of SDC's, a Cascade Fathead and a LDC and recorded the session in Hosmer Hall here on campus. I put the LDC's in A/B about 25 feet apart with omni capsules. the piano and tuba I put each pointing into the hall right next to each other. I put the LDC centered, 8 inches up and 14 inches back from the hammers. I put the Fathead 3 feet up and 3 over from the bell of the tuba.
At mixdown after the session I had a slight comp on the SDC pair and pretty much nothing else. I had the LDC's and close mics about the same level. The hall I was in id a bathtub so I used no reverb at all. The result came out as a perfect mix.
The lesson here are to never stick a mic down the bell of any brass instrument for recording. Live is a different story. I will post a sample if people want one.

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by tubakid4327

Howdy All,
...
I put the LDC's in A/B about 25 feet apart with omni capsules.

25 feet apart is not A/B anymore but two single microphones. Or do you mean 25 feet away from the players? Omnicapsules LDC? Or double membrane LDC in omni position.

I put the LDC centered, 8 inches up and 14 inches back from the hammers.

For classical piano that is way too close for me.

At mixdown after the session I had a slight comp on the SDC pair

why?

The result came out as a perfect mix.

There is no such thing as a perfect mix. Only a best mix before the next mix

The lesson here are to never stick a mic down the bell of any brass instrument for recording.

Who would even think about such a horrific idea?

[rumleymusic]

Quote:
The lesson here are to never stick a mic down the bell of any brass instrument for recording.
Who would even think about such a horrific idea?

I have seen such misguided methods printed in many recording books. As a brass player myself, I tend to think of the bell of a brass instrument as an exhaust pipe, it is where the air is expelled, but not the sound. All you will get is distortion.

Like french horn, tuba is also a conically bored instrument. That means the sound projection is not dependent on the direction of the bell. It is one of those instruments you can record quite easily with a SDC stereo pair 3-5 feet in front of the player. Not something I would try with a trumpet or trombone.

[Karl Jackson]

Thanks for your post. It's great to see someone excited about recording acoustic instruments and trying new things. What a great way to learn about sound and recording!
One thing to keep in mind about tuba is that of all the brass instruments it is the most sensitive to the acoustics of the recording space. Like the Horn, the bell sound is going to reflect off nearby wall and ceiling surfaces (whether you think you want to hear it or not), which can be useful or not, depending on how much of that sound you want in the recording. In addition, because of the wavelengths you're dealing with, the size of the room and how near the instrument is to walls and corners will greatly influence bass response. Spaced omnis in particular will be sensitive to this, more so than near coincident cardioids, so you may find that you need to move the instrument around quite a bit to get just the right blend of body, tone, and articulation.

Keep recording,

[tubakid4327]

LDC in the piano was Cardiod.

Hosmer Hall where I recorded has a rather large stage and I had the horn and piano about in the middle. My goal was to bridge the gap that unfortunately exists between brass recordings that are either to wet already or sound too artificially wet and recordings of brass that are just plain dry and have no sound to them. Going with what the previous poster said, sound does not just come from the bell of horns but from al over. Especially with tuba, the sounds from all over the horn need a chance to combine to form the whole sound of the horn before captured. I have heard recordings done by some big name studios and engineers of brass that just do not sound good at all because they are trying to record a tuba in the same manner as a guitar or snare drum.

I am about to undertake a big project with the brass faculty here recording solo works. I will not be making bad recordings and this last project gave me a bit of an into into the space.

[Jim vanBergen]

Originally Posted by tubakid4327

I will not be making bad recordings

You can see the future? How are my next set of recordings?

[Berolzheimer]

I've gotten really good tuba recordings with a Fostex RP88 or RCA 44's positioned, yes, just outside the bell of the instrument- along with great room mics too, of couirse.

[t_chance]

just throw a 58 down the bell and blast off

[MaTr1x2051]

Based on your description, it doesn't seem like you have any mikes in the right places at all for this type of recording. The piano mike: you probably should be using a stereo pair and they shouldn't be in the piano at all if its classical music. Some times I mix a close(r) pair on a piano with a more distant pair to get both depth and brilliant clarity, but even then the close pair is never inside the instrument. For the tuba: yes, you can get closer if you use ribbons, but again that's not always a good thing. Usually the best brass recordings (solo and ensemble) are made with an XY or ORTF pair as main (decca tree if the ensemble is larger). I have never used a spot mike on tuba in a final mix. Even three feet away can still be too close to the instrument.

If your main pair is the AB you mention, at 25 feet apart you are going to have a huge hole in the center of your sound stage. Even if you fill it with the spots, it will never sound natural. My guess is the piano spot will be difficult to mix because it will be incredibly harsh and percussive. The tuba spot may or may not work depending on the player, instrument, and room. Its a little close for my tastes, but if it sounds good in the end, more power to ya.

My perference would be to get a great main pair in the hall that captures both piano and tuba as they naturally occur together. If the performers are good, they will be able to mix themselves as they would like to be presented. Use that as a guide to adding spot mikes. Put a closer pair on the piano to spot it, probably not omnis to try and reduce leak. Just try and find cardioids that don't exhibit much of a rolloff. If you want to cover yourself, get a good ribbon as a tuba spot. I doubt it will make it into the final mix, but you'll have it just in case. Avoid on-axis with the bell and get it far enough away you don't hear air and valve noise. In this scenario, I'd probably use 95% main pair, and just a tad of the spots for some definition and control.

It would be nice to hear the clip... hopefully you found a way around the hole-in-the-middle

[7rojo7]

Originally Posted by Berolzheimer

I've gotten really good tuba recordings with a Fostex RP88 or RCA 44's positioned, yes, just outside the bell of the instrument- along with great room mics too, of couirse.

I had a Fostex RP88, great mic, I'm selling 2 JV74b, another great mic
Printed ribbbon, maybe Shure can combine the roswellite technology with the Fostex RP technology, or maybe someone should
tuba and piano? put yourself in the arm pit, XY would be my choice for LDC (424, C24, SM69 etc...) not too complicated, you only have to play great
with the right distance, NP

[Corran]

The few times I've recorded tuba and piano I usually used an AB omni pair about 3 ft. apart and 10 or 15 ft. away, and that's it. Why complicate matters?

One guy's tuba made such a racket with the valves. I don't think any amount of spot miking or processing could fix it.

[Studiodawg]

I'm on day 3 of a 3-day tuba recording session. I have a LDC and a ribbon aimed at the bell...LDC is about half a foot above the bell line, ribbon is just below bell line. They are about 6 feet away from tuba and blended to taste. Stereo pair SDCs in the Steinway...stereo ambient mics 3:1 or so back from LDC/ribbon combo...tuba player, composer and pianist all agreed that it is a good sound...thought I'd share this while I'm in the heat of the sessions...

[bove]

Originally Posted by Corran

One guy's tuba made such a racket with the valves. I don't think any amount of spot miking or processing could fix it.

There is a plugin which can fix this. It's called: "replace your valve pads"

[PoxyMusic]

Originally Posted by tubakid4327

The lesson here are to never stick a mic down the bell of any brass instrument for recording.

That is, unless your Geoff Emerick and happen to be recording the Beatles! Otherwise no.

[Greg Curtis]

Tubas need a really diffuse room. Or a player (or outspoken engineer) that can find "the sweet spot." Otherwise, the instrument will take over, or be covered by, the other instrument(s).

I recall a big-shot professional tuba player that was part of my brass quintet, back in Milwaukee during my undergraduate music-performance studies, that would arrive early to warm up and find "his spot," which the quintet would arrange around.

GC

[amanitas]

Rumley music: "like french horn, tuba is also a conically bored instrument. That means the sound projection is not dependent on the direction of the bell."

I'm curious about this. My understanding is that conical vs. cylindrical has to do with how the bore size tapers up from the leadpipe to the bell, and while it certainly has an effect on the sound (conical is smoother and rounder, cylindrical is more brilliant and cutting), I've never understood it to affect the directionality of the instrument - brass instruments sound come out the bell, wherever that bell is pointed.

Granted Tubas and French Horns don't point straight forward from the player like a trumpet or trombone, and thus you are often hearing more reflections from the ceiling or the back wall when you are hearing an ensemble play live, but that doesn't mean the sound isn't coming out of the bell and that you won't get the most direct sound right in front of the bell (whether you choose to mic it there is another question entirely).

A cornet is supposedly conical bore vs. a trumpet is cylindrical (although Robb Stewart has an interesting article on his website that makes an interesting case against this) but I wouldn't necessarily mic the two instruments any differently as in both instances the sound is coming out of the same place.

Am I mistaken?

[Hornblower64]

You are not mistaken. Mostly conical vs. mostly cylindrical will affect the tone, but not the directionality, of the instrument. I say "mostly" as all valve sections are cylindrical, and all leadpipes and bells have taper.

[Greg Curtis]

Sound is emitted and resonates from the bell of the instrument.

The air column inside the instrument is activated by the vibration of the player's embouchure. The corresponding tone is a function of the volume and shape of the instrument air column and the inter-aural cavity of the player. This interior air cavity (air in the mouth, and around the tongue) accounts for the different sounds of different players on the same horn. The volume in the instrument is changed by valves or slides, which changes the pitch.

Since the bell, which flares out, radiates this energy, you could argue that it acts like a speaker cone; it emits sound both to the front and back. In and out of phase. This is why it may be wise to think about what is behind a brass player.

But it is most certainly is directional. That is why the instruments have a bell!

Some brass instruments like a sackbut, which lack a bell flare, could be considered more of an omnidirectional instrument.

Greg

.

[wildplum]

Originally Posted by Studiodawg

I'm on day 3 of a 3-day tuba recording session. I have a LDC and a ribbon aimed at the bell...LDC is about half a foot above the bell line, ribbon is just below bell line. They are about 6 feet away from tuba and blended to taste. Stereo pair SDCs in the Steinway...stereo ambient mics 3:1 or so back from LDC/ribbon combo...tuba player, composer and pianist all agreed that it is a good sound...thought I'd share this while I'm in the heat of the sessions...

so the ambient mics were about 18 feet from tuba-correct?

[JohannesW]

Here is quick test with orpheus & royer sf-1 pair, Tuba & H Kornet

Boulevard of broken dreams