DAV electronics vs. Grace Design

[wanderer]

Hello everyone ...
I would like your references about these preamps. I was determined to purchase a DAV8, but I´ve been told that Grace Design M801 is a much higher quality. Grace is far more expensive, and I fear that saving money I could lose quality.
The converter would be a Mytek. The mics, DPA or Schoeps. And I´ll record classical chamber music and solo piano.

[ISedlacek]

You could also consider Forssell JMP-6 preamp, 6 channels, JMP 6 six-channel microphone preamplifier by Forsell Technologies That would be great for your applications. Very lively, detailed, natural sound.

[fifthcircle]

Don't have experience with the forsell, but Ivo's samples have always sounded great with it. One of these days I need to give it a demo.

I do, however, own both Grace and DAV preamps. The build quality of the Grace is MUCH higher than the DAV. It isn't even close- the grace is built like a tank whereas the DAV is kind of flimsy.

Sound-wise, though, they are both in the clean camp. The DAV has a softer sound than the Grace and the Grace will give more detail with a greater front to back image. You really can't go wrong with either from a sound perspective, it is more of a matter of taste. I have also never had any issues with either in the field so as far as I'm concerned they have both passed stress tests with flying colors in the field.

--Ben

[MichaelPatrick]

I have Grace, DAV and Forssell.

DAV is more creamy and less detailed sounding than Grace and Forssell.

Forssell and Grace are close to each other. Grace makes a wonderful 8ch unit that is very convenient if you need multiple channels. They all have stepped gain controls which is good for stereo pairs and MS arrays, except Forssell JMP-6 which has continuously variable gain knobs.

If I could only have one it would be Forssell SMP-2. Love the DAV, and Grace is good at anything acoustic. Some top movie scoring engineers use Grace consistently over Millennia, and I agree completely with that choice.

[Plush]

The d.a.v. electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 mic amp is the best mic amp in the world. The other two mentioned here are not the d.a.v. electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 mic amp.

[Audiop]

May I ask for mr Plushes definition of the word "best" in this context?


/Peter

[rumleymusic]

The d.a.v. electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 mic amp is the best mic amp in the world. The other two mentioned here are not the d.a.v. electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 mic amp.

Opinion as undisputed fact, leave it to Plush. I would say that DAV is the top of the Burr Brown IC based designs. Certain DIY companies have improvements to the design like Five Fish and Seventh Circle Audio that use THAT chips.

I like the Forssell and the AEA RPQ(designed by Fred Forssell) more than DAV personally.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by Audiop

May I ask for mr Plushes definition of the word "best" in this context?


/Peter

No you may not.
I offer my post as comedy relief and also to repeat the same thing I always post until it takes on a life of its own.

[MichaelPatrick]

My opinion of the DAV BG1 is this:

It is the only preamp many musicians will need for their project studio. They should check one out before buying because it has a gently flattering and realistic sound. And nothing can touch it for the price.

It is one preamp every acoustic recording engineer should have in their locker because it sounds musical, sweet and pre-mixed. It is forgiving too, a refreshing break from the other top clean preamps I know well like Gordon, Forssell, Grace, DACs Clarity, including transformer and tube designs like Neve 5012, LaChapell and Focusrite Red. When recording an ensemble it kind of glues instruments and ambiance together, and the the glue though quite invisible tastes really good.

Did I say it works with ribbons? It works great with ribbons too.

[dreamachine]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

My opinion of the DAV BG1 is this:

It is the only preamp many musicians will need for their project studio. They should check one out before buying because it has a gently flattering and realistic sound. And nothing can touch it for the price.

It is one preamp every acoustic recording engineer should have in their locker because it sounds musical, sweet and pre-mixed. It is forgiving too, a refreshing break from the other top clean preamps I know well like Gordon, Forssell, Grace, DACs Clarity, including transformer and tube designs like Neve 5012, LaChapell and Focusrite Red. When recording an ensemble it kind of glues instruments and ambiance together, and the the glue though quite invisible tastes really good.

Did I say it works with ribbons? It works great with ribbons too.

100% AGREE, I love my DAV BG2 ,i was like the OP : hesitate with millenia... No remorses

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

I would say that DAV is the top of the Burr Brown IC based designs.

My BG8 is full of THAT1510's. Not a Burr Brown in sight.

Certain DIY companies have improvements to the design like Five Fish and Seventh Circle Audio that use THAT chips.

Yeah, like DAV Electronics. thumbsup

[Uncle Russ]

The DAV works well with ribbons? Does anyone happen to have an idea of its impedance?

[Remoteness]

Is there a significant difference sonically between the DAV Electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 and the No. 8?

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by Uncle Russ

The DAV works well with ribbons? Does anyone happen to have an idea of its impedance?

I don't know if it's a UK thing to NOT publish input load specs, but both D.A.V. electronics (BG mic preamps) and DACS (Clarity MicAmp) in England refuse to give a simple answer to that question. I can only guess that these boutique shops don't run tests that require linear interpolation (because the load varies with frequency). I've been on the phone with both companies and they just say, in effect, that the load impedance is high enough.

P.S. My earlier comment saying that DAV works with ribbons is based on experience. Last night I tracked a choir with an AEA R88 (M/S) > DAV BG2 (58dB gain) and it sounds great.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Last night I tracked a choir with an AEA R88 (M/S) > DAV BG2 (58dB gain) and it sounds great.

Was'nt it 59 dB ?

I'm using also the DAV with Beyerdynamic M130 and M160, and Coles 4038: just fine.

[hughesmr]

Have an idea for a GREAT shootout ...

1. R88 -> TRP at 59dB
2. R88 -> BG1 at 59dB (max available on the "stock" DAV)

Test on a variety of source material. More of a mic amp noise comparison. Anyone got the gear to do this?

[Nobilmente]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Is there a significant difference sonically between the DAV Electronics Broadhurst Gardens No. 1 and the No. 8?

No difference at all your Remoteness!! (Apart from H.P.F. points)

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

Was'nt it 59 dB ?

I guess I don't have the stock unit. My BG2 goes to 66 just like this BG1U. DAV electronics - Broadhurst Gardens No. 1U Mic-amp Front Preview

I guess that means ribbon users should make sure they have a unit with extended gain, as M.Hughes kindly points out. Thanks, Michael, for clarifying that there are apparently two models, one with extended gain in 4 dB steps, like mine.

[didier.brest]

OK! I've got the BG1, which has a casing different from the BG1U and 3 dB step gain from 26 dB to 59 dB.

[dtf]

The DAV website shows a BG No.2 "Mk II", which explains the difference in gain range and step size.

If this means a change to the circuit it would be good to have some more information about it, as the website does not explain anything.

Dirk

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by dtf

The DAV website shows a BG No.2 "Mk II", which explains the difference in gain range and step size.

If this means a change to the circuit it would be good to have some more information about it, as the website does not explain anything.

Mick told me only the low cut filters changed in my model, and I had forgotten there were some made with different gain settings. These things don't affect the nature of its sound and I recall him saying they all share the same basic design.

[RobAnderson]

There may be no difference in the circuit itself, but I doubt that they are sonically "identical" under real operating conditions.

If nothing else, just the fact that there are 8 amplifiers sharing the same power source and motherboard is going to add some noise and crosstalk between channels I think, which would not be present in the BG1.

This may be a small tradeoff considering the smaller footprint per channel.

Are the gain steps matched between channels on the BG8? Does anyone know the tolerance?

[Nobilmente]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

I guess I don't have the stock unit. My BG2 goes to 66 just like this BG1U. DAV electronics - Broadhurst Gardens No. 1U Mic-amp Front Preview

I guess that means ribbon users should make sure they have a unit with extended gain, as M.Hughes kindly points out. Thanks, Michael, for clarifying that there are apparently two models, one with extended gain in 4 dB steps, like mine.

Hi Michael

All of my BG 1's are set at 59db, and I don't have any issues with ribbons, which I use very often. The BG with ribbons is ideal. In fact, I've never used all of the 59db's. I've just looked at one of the BG1's I used on the last job with an M160, and it is still set at 53db's from that job.

I guess it depends on what you're recording, but perhaps if sources are really quiet, then possibly a ribbon may not be the most appropriate mic for the job, regardless of output levels.

[Sheikyearbouti]

Hi Wanderer,

I have Grace preamps with AD and use them all the time on classical with Schoeps and DPAs and this combination is absolutely amazing. It works perfect for chamber music and piano. Very natural, great detail, great front/back & stereo image, great ambience, unbelievable details. Plus you have the stepped gain and they are very well constructed.

I have used them occasionally for projects different from classical and jazz and despite their "cleanness" I have always had very good results. Recently I made the experiment and gave them a go on pop-rock drums with a pair of DPA on OH and a pair of Schoeps as room mics, plus a beta52 on kick and sm57 (no transformer) on snare and the sound was really good: very natural as expected but still with lots of punch, very good low end and really nice highs. Sounds well on vocals too.

On the contrary I have never used DAV but have seen it recently in many top studios here in the UK and have heard only good things about it.

Hope this helps.

[rumleymusic]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic
I would say that DAV is the top of the Burr Brown IC based designs.

My BG8 is full of THAT1510's. Not a Burr Brown in sight.


Quote:
Certain DIY companies have improvements to the design like Five Fish and Seventh Circle Audio that use THAT chips.
Yeah, like DAV Electronics. thumbsup

They must have switched out for the THAT's in the past few years. That is good. The one thing that SCA and Five Fish still have over the DAV is better power supplies and higher gain. Something to think about if you plan to use ribbon mics.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

They must have switched out for the THAT's in the past few years. That is good. The one thing that SCA and Five Fish still have over the DAV is better power supplies and higher gain. Something to think about if you plan to use ribbon mics.

Mick can add gain...

[rumleymusic]

Mick can add gain...

UHHHG! What have I got left....?....UHH...MADE IN AMERICA! YEAH! Take THAT!

[Plush]

Pronouncements about Broadhurst Gardens mic amps by people who don't know and are making recordings for free are mightily irritating here.

In fact people talking like they do on this forum would get them fired here in less than 1 week.

What you don't remember and are ignorant of is that the Broadhurst Gardens mics amps are Decca Records mic amps already qualified and designed by the best ears in the business.

They do not require people to pass judgement on them since they are already vetted and have pre-qualified themselves at the most highly prestigious recording company out there.

What else would you like to know?
Use it, don't talk about it and don't post about it. And charge the client for using it--stop recording for free.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by Nobilmente

The DAV BG is something of a brother to the Fearn, it shares many of its tonal qualities but is a little cleaner sounding.

I've got both. They do not sound close IMO. Tested here.

[didier.brest]

I don't expect night and day difference between the sounds from two preamps. The integrated preamps of my Fireface 400 are closer to the DAV than than to the Fearn.