DAV electronics vs. Grace Design

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

www.audio-ergo-sum.de - Das Forum für Tontechnik • Das Team

not related at all. wrong guy.

[gareth.h.rees]

I have a DAV BG2 mk1. Works for me...

Never used anything better though

[Branko]

Speaking of DAV BG2 - I have one and I'm using it to record foley. Extremely quiet and sufficiently detailed. 66 dB of gain.

[drpro]

I am interested in a single rack unit, multi mic pre. 6-8 inputs. I have no experience with the DAV, Forssell, Yamaha or True Systems. I am primarily recording accoustic instruments and vocals. I would like to hear any thoughts from users of any of these pres.

Thanks
David

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by drpro

I am interested in a single rack unit, multi mic pre. 6-8 inputs. I have no experience with the DAV, Forssell, Yamaha or True Systems. I am primarily recording accoustic instruments and vocals. I would like to hear any thoughts from users of any of these pres.

Thanks
David

You're welcome to borry my DAV BG8 to test any time, my friend. Also might want to try the Apogee Ensemble. I might like it a bit better on my ribbons.

My opinion: Nothing better, especially for the moolah, than the BG8. The Ensemble and the BG8 are a sweet DAW interface. I'm in Logic Pro.

HB

[Don S]

Originally Posted by drpro

I am interested in a single rack unit, multi mic pre. 6-8 inputs. I have no experience with the DAV, Forssell, Yamaha or True Systems. I am primarily recording accoustic instruments and vocals. I would like to hear any thoughts from users of any of these pres.

Thanks
David

There have been times where the Grace was not usable. It is very detailed and has remarkable front to back imaging. The times I couldn't use it I was recording soprano, another time trumpet. From hearing and using the 2, I can say the Dav would be a broader sound that would be more flexible than Grace. There are times you just don't want that much detail.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Don S

There have been times where the Grace was not usable. It is very detailed and has remarkable front to back imaging. The times I couldn't use it I was recording soprano, another time trumpet. From hearing and using the 2, I can say the Dav would be a broader sound that would be more flexible than Grace. There are times you just don't want that much detail.

this is the same feeling I get from the grace preamps(well, the not useable part ). To me they sound like Millenia amps, only slightly less harsh. The sound to me is offensive.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Corran

Here's something everyone should consider: Being a recording engineer does NOT require a special license, test, or pedigree. Therefore it is NOT a "professional" area like a doctor, teacher, etc. Anyone can do it for any price and at any level.

Would you say this applied to "professional" musicians?

Rich

[Corran]

Sure, no one has to have a degree to perform as a musician. You just have to be skilled enough to get the job. Hence an audition for an orchestra or whatever. And in the same sense, there are different types of musicians. Some might play/sing in church every once and a while, getting paid occasionally. And there are others playing in orchestras.

In comparison to the discussion about recording rates, well at least around here no one can "undercut" another musicians. Everyone gets paid the same. So I don't see a problem with the best musician getting the gig, regardless of training.

Also, I think in one orchestra I play in I get something like $100 per "service," or rehearsal/concert. And then some weekends I play at a church for $30. Should I demand $100 for my service at the church? That seems to be the parallel to the debate in the recording universe.

What do you think Rich?

Oh and my definition earlier of a "professional" was very narrow of course. That was the point. In any ethics class for teachers they will talk about the "professionalism" debate, where many parts of society don't consider teachers professionals because they (supposedly) don't perform the same highly skilled tasks as a doctor or similar. Regardless, many fields of work require some kind of special training that culminates in a test or certification, making you a "professional" in your area. Of course there are degree programs for musicians, or recording engineers, but an amateur can learn just as well how to do these things and do not need that certification to do them. On the other hand I don't know any amateur doctors, and you certainly won't be hired to do any surgeries without certification, even if you had somehow learned it on your own.

[aracu]

Originally Posted by Corran

Oh and my definition earlier of a "professional" was very narrow of course. That was the point. In any ethics class for teachers they will talk about the "professionalism" debate, where many parts of society don't consider teachers professionals because they (supposedly) don't perform the same highly skilled tasks as a doctor or similar. Regardless, many fields of work require some kind of special training that culminates in a test or certification, making you a "professional" in your area.

Interesting...the label of "professional" has imaginary and political aspects to it. A careless use of the word can easily create conflict and division. The imaginary duality of professional verses hobbyist suggests a world consisting of [bored couch potatoe money making superior experts] and [inferior naive introverts who just do things out of curiosity and to pass the time].

[David Spearritt]

As has been said many times before on this subject, the big bucks are earned by the best people doing the hardest work. The opposite is true as well. So one should always ask ... what category do I fall into?

Tertiary training (no particular field required) is almost mandatory, but not absolutely essential, but it helps hugely to make one aware of technical responsibilities and gives one a perspective on standards by opening eyes to the best.

Experience gives one the political skills needed to deal with people in all aspects of the music industry, how to talk to and deal with musicians, producers, impresarios, management etc, many have huge egos and one has to be mindful of this.

Experience also gets you known for good and bad work, and exposes you to operational pitfalls and successes and why.

Its all pretty simple really, and much the same in any industry.

[Nobilmente]

This is a topic which could run and run, and meet itself coming back the other way, but from my point of view, I have a price for which I work.

Whether it is a big job, or a small job the basis of the charges I make is the same. It has to be. I also use the same equipment and take the same care with the smaller job as I do with the larger - and I do that for my sake as much as anyone else.

From my point of view, things have a value, I have a value, and my work has a value.

If you undervalue yourself and your work, so will everyone else.

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Nobilmente

If you undervalue yourself and your work, so will everyone else.

Yes. Also, I want to add that someone listening to your product (playing or recording) has no idea what you're paid. Only if it sounds professional (good) or not. This is the reason I never work for cheap. If I do a cheap sounding recording, it may be heard by someone other than the client who probably will not know I did it for free or close to it. Only that it has my name on it. Or in a musician's case - name in the program.

Can we help the OP and recommend a good 8 channel pre?!
I have also used the true P8. It sounded nice and clean, but never stellar. It sounded to me much like a mackie 800r. Maybe a tad bit faster transient response. If you can find one used for about 1500, it would be worth it, but not full retail.

[Nobilmente]

My recommendation would be DAV preamps for many reasons, but to sum them up, I think they handle the signal in a musical way.

[foldback]

I have a lot of different mic preamps but I don't own any DAV. Not because I think they're bad but my tool box is already overflowing.

The Grace m801 is an amazing device, if you can't record with it or think it somehow sounds bad, in my opinion there is something wrong, perhaps your preamp is busted.

The detail of the sound produced by the Grace is extreme, I'd call it pristine.

I love what the Grace does for every mic I plug into it, from my Royers, to my Neumanns, AKG and even a lowly Shure SM58, when these mics are placed well in a somewhat decent acoustical environment the results are spectacular.

Recording captured my imagination and became my passion in the late 50's. I've recorded a lot of classical, pipe organ, opera, symphonic and I've also done a lot of rock recording, movie sound tracks and sound reinforcement. The Grace can do it all and do it really well if the engineer has the chops to use it right.

The Grace is not the end-all, be-all preamp (they'll have to pry my API 312's out of my cold dead fingers) but to just slander it here without offering any detail is not in the spirit of helping each other understand these devices.

The Grace m801 is not forgiving if you clip its input. I wish that the display was more than a multi-color LED, it's too easy to operate close to the clip level with this display unless you are very cautious.

With all that said, the Grace is extremely uncolored, very very low noise and offers detail in its reproduction that few other products can match. If you really want to know what your mics sound like, try them through the Grace.

Best of luck to all

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by foldback

but to just slander it here without offering any detail l

If you are responding to me...well..heres the thing. I want to start off by saying..I am a hack i am ok at what I do, but of course have a ways to go to be good. I dont worship at the preamp alter any longer. I believe that anything out there that is "pro", if used within its operating range is capable of great results.. there have been several pieces that have really offended my senses, so to speak. DACS Clarity Preamp. Millennia HV3 preamp Grace 8XX and 2XX series preamps and Sennheiser MKH800 microphones. Idont know what it is..and i cannot quite describe it..but i am very, very sensitive to things that sound "hifi" "etched" and un-natural. (hifh frequency boost/anomalies) each of those gears were hard for me to use for any period of time without seeking solace for my ears. analgous to being bathed in hospital or laboratory light. harsh. you can see all the warts.. but it aint pleasant to have in your face. id rather have candles.

just a stupid way of saying they didnt sound natural but synthetic.

that aint nothing to get offended over though...obviously people love them and use them, etc.... I just dont..

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by foldback

The Grace m801 is an amazing device...

[aracu]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Experience gives one the political skills needed to deal with people in all aspects of the music industry, how to talk to and deal with musicians, producers, impresarios, management etc, many have huge egos and one has to be mindful of this.

Experience also gets you known for good and bad work, and exposes you to operational pitfalls and successes and why.

Bravo, well said.


"i am very, very sensitive to things that sound "hifi" " -Teddy

On the subject of pres, I agree with Teddy that it is very useful to have
at least an optional set of pres that are not overly high-fi, to give a gentle
touch to certain instruments and rooms.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by aracu

Bravo, well said.


"i am very, very sensitive to things that sound "hifi" " -Teddy

On the subject of pres, I agree with Teddy that it is very useful to have
at least an optional set of pres that are not overly high-fi, to give a gentle
touch to certain instruments and rooms.

I was hoping that made sense. phew.

thanks Aracu

[Tommy-boy]

Originally Posted by Plush

However, working for free poisons the market and conditions non profit groups
(who are the majority of music presenters in most markets) to expect to have it for free. This damages the market and goofs over the recordist, hobbyist or pro, who needs to charge a fee.

That is what is wrong with doing it for free. Every time an engineer feels that he must present his services for free, he soon goes out of business. What? --you don't think that the music presenter knows that quality costs money? They are laughing at you!

I suppose everybody's entitled to an opinion. Here's mine. I am free to do with my time and money as I choose. I strongly believe that it's important to support charities and non-profit groups. This is my belief that I don't push on others - but I live by it. I donate money and time where I can to help out.

I record a local elementary school concerts for free. Why? I view it as a charitable donation and I enjoy doing it. So who am I hurting or putting out of business? Well, before they had me - their recordings consisted of a Marantz CD recorder hooked up to two SM 58s at the very back of the auditorium being manned by a 12 yr old girl who pushed record and stop for each song. Tell me again - who am I hurting? The way I see it, I donated time for a worthwhile cause. The parents sure seem happy about it. The band director is thrilled.

Instead of bitching about hobbiests hurting the business, sharpen your pencil and do some strategizing. What are the market segments you're interested in? Are there areas where you have a competitive advantage? What potential clients are better funded? Can you add value by helping non-profits raise funds to pay for your services?

You should never worry about people like me. While I think I'm decent, I know I'd be better if I did it full time. If you're full time, you should be able to sell anybody why you're a better alternative than me. Maybe as part of your growth strategy you could offer to mix, clean up recordings, etc... when hobbiests do the recording. If you're really good and position it right, you should make a play to charge the hobbiest. If they can pay for all of the gear, they can pay you too!


-Tom

[Plush]

Hello Tommy Boy,

My commentary certainly was never meant to apply to those recording elementary school ensembles. Record away, sir!

thank you,

Plushphonic

[Tommy-boy]

OK. Sorry for the tirade.

I suppose I'm just a bit annoyed from the anti-hobbiest sentiment that I see from time to time here.

One of things I often think about when reading threads on how hard it is to get non-profit clients, is how people position their services. If I were doing recording for a full time living and wanted to go after non-profits - I'd be thinking of how to get them to view it as an investment, rather than an expense. I'd be figuring how to bolster their fund raising, even how to use my recording as a means for them to get better funding. Also, often the person (conductor / director) controls who is picked to record, but he or she might not control funding. How do you get access to the person with the funding?

Maybe you could make your services risk free and cost free? How? By offering to sell CDs to the non-profits constituents for a price and split how much goes to the non-profit and how much you get. This should appeal to a non-profit as there is zero risk, no money to lay out, and the potential for the non-profit to pick up extra dollars that can be used for its work. And it would be a no-brainer to pick a pro to do the work and to use this as a selling point for CD sales.

-Tom