Bad Mix in a small live venue, who's fault: Drummer or Mixer?

[bcgood]

Last night I went to see a band in a small venue that my friend plays in. Before they played a singer performed with just a guitarist and a keyboardist. She sang into a Nuemann KMS 105 mic and she sounded great. Everything sounded pretty balanced and you could understand every word that she sang.

Next up was the band my friend plays in. This band had two guitarists, a bassist a drummer, a horn player, the singer, (who also played guitar), and a keyboardist.

Obviously a band like this is much harder to mix than a small band. Here's my question though. The mix wasn't very good last night with the band. Pretty much all that you could hear was the drums and the bass. You could hear that someone was singing and you could tell there was some other noise that must have been the guitars but other than that everything was pretty much drowned out by the bass and drums.

I partly blame the guy behind the sound board. I do believe that he could have got a better mix going in there. Having said that I also seem to think less of drummers that don't adjust their playing to a small venue and situation like that and play softer so that it is easier to hear everything else with keeping the levels reasonable.

I'm curious as to people's ideas and suggestions for getting a great mix in a small venue.

[bcgood]

Here's some photos of the inside of the venue to give you an idea of the size of the room.

[boojum]

If the gear was there for a good mix it was the guy on the SBD. If the gear was not there, who knows?

[bcgood]

The guy was mixing on an Allen and Heath sound board. I don't know the model number. Honestly I do feel like I could have gotten a better mix than him. Still it sucks having to mix around the drums which are obviously the loudest element of the band.

[frans]

On FOH duties the ugliest obstacles are:

A) singers that have no breathing technique (read: way too little volume for the racket the other guys are making), then there isn't really much you can do to bring the voice up before feedback

B) singers that don't know how to handle a mic (closing their hand around the head, so the directivity of the mic is altered to omni) or regularly pointing it at the monitors

C) drummers or the band too loud for the room, there's only so much volume a certain roomsize will have before it shows you a white flag. You might have observed this while recording guitars at volumes that are to big for a small booth

D) cheap amps dialled in totally wrong, f.e. a modelling amp sounding like a crash cymbal (not joking...)

[Sam Walker]

I've had similar problems and it does normally come down to the room and sound limits. If the room is untreated or there aren't enough people in the crowd, the cymbals overpower and completely drown out guitars and vocals. I've had both good and awful mixes in the same room with similar sized bands and it is normally down to crowd size, though in the pictures there seems to be a decent sized crowd.

[bcgood]

FYI the pics are of the place but not the same band and probably half the number of people.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by bcgood

. Honestly I do feel like I could have gotten a better mix than him.

Don't worry, this is a fairly common mindset of engineers. We typically cannot go to a concert without thinking about how we would mix it "better." I often have to consciously make an effort to just enjoy the show on the rare occasion I actually go SEE a band.

[joelpatterson]

It's obviously devilishly hard to get a proper mix, on the spot, with a two-minute soundcheck, of a band you've never seen nor heard before.

But then... I have seen sound guys (who felt they've been disrespected) accidentally on purpose warp the mix to favor kick drum and bass-- seems like those are the constants with "any" band and dialing those in, if they're familiar with the board and the room, is easy.

Yeah, sure, vengeful FOH guys have no place in the ideal world. Wow, the "ideal world"... what a concept!

[AV_Dub]

In mixing small bands (Rock band types) and large groups (full orchestra w/rock band and choir) I use a compressor on the lead vocal/soloists mics. Works exceptionally well to give clarity and to bring the lead vocal up into the mix. As far as some drummers go.. take away their drum sticks, then hand them a pair of 7a nylon tips. Lighter sticks usually cure an artless basher.

Bringing your own compressor and drum sticks to a small-club mixing gig might sound stupid, but i guarantee you will pull off the best mix they have ever heard there.. (if they don't have compressors already) And if you bring a stereo comp with gate, use the other channel to group comp the back-up vocals or gate the kick drum. fabulous.

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Don't worry, this is a fairly common mindset of engineers. We typically cannot go to a concert without thinking about how we would mix it "better." I often have to consciously make an effort to just enjoy the show on the rare occasion I actually go SEE a band.

This used to be more true probably ten years ago for me. Now I actually root for the sound guy, but honestly this mix was really bad and could have been much better. The band that my friend is in consists of professional, studio musicians with major chops. The points I would deduct is that the drummer should have played more quietly but he is a very tight and skilled drummer non the less.

It is hard for me to not think about it though when the mix is bad. I just tried to enjoy being there but of course I would have been curious to take over the helm and see what I could have done. It would have been interesting.

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by AV_Dub

In mixing small bands (Rock band types) and large groups (full orchestra w/rock band and choir) I use a compressor on the lead vocal/soloists mics. Works exceptionally well to give clarity and to bring the lead vocal up into the mix. As far as some drummers go.. take away their drum sticks, then hand them a pair of 7a nylon tips. Lighter sticks usually cure an artless basher.

Bringing your own compressor and drum sticks to a small-club mixing gig might sound stupid, but i guarantee you will pull off the best mix they have ever heard there.. (if they don't have compressors already) And if you bring a stereo comp with gate, use the other channel to group comp the back-up vocals or gate the kick drum. fabulous.

Your points make sense, next time I go to my friends gig I'm bringing my 1176, LA2A and some brushes.

I kid!

[AV_Dub]

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by bcgood

Last night I went to see a band in a small venue that my friend plays in. Before they played a singer performed with just a guitarist and a keyboardist. She sang into a Nuemann KMS 105 mic and she sounded great. Everything sounded pretty balanced and you could understand every word that she sang.

Next up was the band my friend plays in. This band had two guitarists, a bassist a drummer, a horn player, the singer, (who also played guitar), and a keyboardist.

Obviously a band like this is much harder to mix than a small band. Here's my question though. The mix wasn't very good last night with the band. Pretty much all that you could hear was the drums and the bass. You could hear that someone was singing and you could tell there was some other noise that must have been the guitars but other than that everything was pretty much drowned out by the bass and drums.

I partly blame the guy behind the sound board. I do believe that he could have got a better mix going in there. Having said that I also seem to think less of drummers that don't adjust their playing to a small venue and situation like that and play softer so that it is easier to hear everything else with keeping the levels reasonable.

I'm curious as to people's ideas and suggestions for getting a great mix in a small venue.

Where in town is that place? I will be in Sacto tomorrow to do some sessions until Sunday. As far as your question, the fault is on several levels. They all however, start in the same place, that would be leakage/noise floor. The KMS105 is a fine mic, I have used them extensively. They do have one issue in a live environment, that is that they reach back behind the singer much more than a Shure 58, Beta 87, Beta 58, etc, etc. The good news is that the leakage from that mic is amazing sounding, much better than any Shure, etc. Of course on a small stage, it would be more than you want. You are correct, a really skilled drummer can adjust dynamically for that situation, I have used plexi with great success to greatly reduce that leakage. That also allows the other players to lower their stage level. You could also have a singer eat the mic through an entire performance, and compress it to keep from killing the audience with the vocal. The only other way to combat that is to crank up the PA a bunch, and really mix through it. It is still a serious compromise, not my favorite. It is an ugly issue.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by bishopthomas

Don't worry, this is a fairly common mindset of engineers. We typically cannot go to a concert without thinking about how we would mix it "better." I often have to consciously make an effort to just enjoy the show on the rare occasion I actually go SEE a band.

The frustrating part is that some of us really can "mix it better".

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by AV_Dub

In mixing small bands (Rock band types) and large groups (full orchestra w/rock band and choir) I use a compressor on the lead vocal/soloists mics. Works exceptionally well to give clarity and to bring the lead vocal up into the mix. As far as some drummers go.. take away their drum sticks, then hand them a pair of 7a nylon tips. Lighter sticks usually cure an artless basher.

Bringing your own compressor and drum sticks to a small-club mixing gig might sound stupid, but i guarantee you will pull off the best mix they have ever heard there.. (if they don't have compressors already) And if you bring a stereo comp with gate, use the other channel to group comp the back-up vocals or gate the kick drum. fabulous.

Please enlighten me on how more compression on the singers mic will "bring up the vocal" in the mix. Unless the vocal was lower than the leakage in the mic, it would actually do the opposite. Just asking......

[bcgood]

Hi Michael, the name of the club is Old Ironsides, it's on S and 10th street near downtown Sacramento.

I should also mention that when my friends band came on they switched the lead vocalists mic to a 58.

I also wanted to add that there is no doubt that you could have had a better mix going!

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by bcgood

I should also mention that when my friends band came on they switched the lead vocalists mic to a 58.

Maybe there lies the problem. The FOH guy could have not compensated for the lower output of the 58. Instead of adjusting the gain maybe (s)he pushed the fader to the top and thought that that's all that could be done.

[AlexK]

I'd point the finger at the drummer, but also possibly at the house PA. Looks like a sort of Bose 802-ish-venue, and you can't get any damn volume out of them before they A) sound absolutely awful (114dB peak SPL?!) and B) start to feedback like nothing else when in a smallish space.

The main problem though is probably the drummer. Cymbals in a small space like that can start to completely drown out even guitarists.

The PA can only provide so much extra volume to the vocalist before it starts to feedback. I've had some bad experiences with a band who played far too loud, completely drowning out the vocalist and my work behind the board.

[bcgood]

Yea, I've run FOH for a church meeting in a gymnasium and the drums where always the thing that I had to really contain to balance everything else out, especially vocals. Luckily they had plexi glass around the drums which seemed to help although I'm sure a lot of people especially drummers don't like plexi glass. Personally I think they should be standard issue along with low height, high density dividers in a small venue such as Old Ironsides.

[mixedupsteve]

It's most likely a combination of many things. Bad soundcheck and setup and non cooperative drummer and bass player. A couple of things I see in the pics. The drums are up against a reflective wall and there's a low ceiling. The drummer would have to compensate for this along with the room size. Thats a pretty big amp back there so that could be the problem with the bass. The center vocal mic is too high and that singer is having to adjust and isn't singing into the sweet spot of the mic.
Like Alex said, all you can do if the stage volume is too high is take the vocals up until feedback starts or the crowd starts screaming at you.

[noamraz]

Due the fact that you have not provided any recording or specification of the gear/venue, reasons for such mixing experience could be caused by a lot of variables.

For instance - Compression of Vocal Mic, Hard compression can actually harm the vocals with the wrong microphone as it has the potential of raising the level of the Drums actually (Or any other element that it will pick).

In my experience - The majority of such acts suffer from loud stage and sometimes placement of microphones and players in small venues holds much greater affect than concert in a large venue.

My practice to handle rock in small venue where the drummer is half meter behind the lead vocal -

1. I start by choosing the vocal mic with the least pickup for background noise to get a good/proper signal from the vocal vs. drums - Keep in mind that the drums are very close to the vocalist.

2. Balance - I will balance the drums only after i have set the volume of the vocal mics and will balance the drums while the vocal mics are open as you cannot ignore the fact that these Vocal Mics pickup the drums and sometimes there will be no need for any amplification of any element of the drums.

[AV_Dub]

Originally Posted by Beyersound

Please enlighten me on how more compression on the singers mic will "bring up the vocal" in the mix. Unless the vocal was lower than the leakage in the mic, it would actually do the opposite. Just asking......

Some amount of compression narrows the dynamic range of the mic/singer allowing them to be brought up (perceptually) into the mix. I've noticed a clarity and "up front presence" quality to compressed live vocals. Unless your working with world class musicians and vocalists, I think having a compressor on hand is crucial.

I'm not talking about huge amounts of compression, just enough to get the job done.

[bcgood]

Make sure you read the whole thread guys. I've already stated that those photos aren't from the gig just to give you an idea of the room.

[Remoteness]

If you want to point fingers at something, point them towards the FOH engineer's ears!!!

I mean, yes, the drummer may be playing too hard; yes, the mic may not have been the right one, but the engineer has ears, and they should have been in use when mixing that band.

Like I've said, a number of times...

It's about the ear and not the gear!!!

When I mix live sound, especially in a very small venue, I only amplify the instruments and vocals that need the volume increase. The idea is to bring up the instruments that don't project in the room.

I always listen to the band without the FOH speakers on, and then make the decision on what should be brought into the mix. Even if the drums are the loudest in the room, I still may bring up some of the drum mics for definition and not necessarily for an increase in volume.

If all else fails, you could try some EQ to help balance the offensive sounds.

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I always listen to the band without the FOH speakers on, and then make the decision on what should be brought into the mix.

What a great idea Steve! I wish you where running the board that night. I'm sure it would have sounded MUCH better.

[bcgood]

Just to continue the discussion and get more ideas, how do you professionals feel about using gates to help bring about a better overall mix over the FOH speakers in this situation? Especially for use with the drum mics to help cut down on them picking up extraneous noise from guitar and bass amps etc. I'm also thinking a nice gate on the main vocal mic might help.

[joelpatterson]

I have pretty much zero experience running live sound-- not that it's going to stop me from blabbing on-- but seems like the theoretical good a gate could do would be outweighed by the awkward results you would get if it wasn't adjusted perfectly right-- it might seem like the connection kept cutting in and out? And end up being more distracting than helpful?

[Remoteness]

Ah, yes - gates...

Something I used (and abused) in the 80s.
I rarely use gates these days simply because they don't work that well. YMMV.

If and when I do use them, I usually attenuate only about 3 to 6 dB instead of a complete reduction of the signal. I find it helps make things sit better in the mix. It also sounds better to my ears when you still have a bit of the leakage in the mix.

I rarely hear leakage from the bass and guitars in the drums, but that might have something to do with how I place my mics.
It's usually drum leakage in the downstage vocal mics for me.

A properly dialed in gate on the main vocal (or all the vocals for that matter) is indeed a good thing as long as you don't over do the attenuation settings.
Keep in mind that when the gate is open you will hear all that drum leakage, so less of a difference (like 3 to 6 dB of reduction) is a lot smoother to the ear when the gate is (opening/closing) in use.

[bcgood]

Interesting, thanks Steve. It's funny how pieces of gear go in and out of fashion. At either rate, as always it sounds like mic positioning and musician placement, although in that club there's no choice there. The band had 7 members and they barely fit on stage.

Going back to mic positioning, what do you use to get the best placement in a given situation? Do you just go by what you know and by sight? Or do you use something like a Korg MR 1000 with headphones and a pair of Direct Sound EX-29s for instance to hear what your mics are hearing and then plug the XLR back into the patch bay?