Bad Mix in a small live venue, who's fault: Drummer or Mixer?

[Remoteness]

IMO, the most important thing you can do to get the best sound possible is speaker positioning and where you place those mics.

You always see these threads that ask, "which mic" or "which pre" or "which combo" is best for me and I wonder if these questions were driven by manufacture hype. Now, don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to put down "hype," but it's just mind boggling when the real question should be about mic placement or room acoustics and how they play a part in how we capture sound.

You say, there wasn't a choice in that club, but there was and always will be.
Moving a speaker cabinet a couple of inches in the right direction or adjusting a mic a quarter of an inch can make a bigger difference in the sound than the type of gear that was used or not used.

You say, seven members barely fit on that stage, but that's kind of standard for us, since we record a fair amount of large bands on small stages/venues like at the Blue Note or the Jazz Standard in NYC..

Check this Conrad Herwig recording we did awhile back.
There were no overdubs and everything was captured in front of a live audience...
Another Kind of Blue - the Latin Side of Miles Davis

With regard to mic positioning, I rely on my instinct, but I establish a logical connection between my instinct and what I actually see and hear in the room.

I guess the best way to put it is, trust your instincts, but verify!

That being said, I do recommend using stage techs or some gadget with a pair of headphone to find the exact (or best) placement if your instincts doesn't do it for you upfront.

[bcgood]

I remember listening to that when the thread was up a long time ago. Wow, 3,636 views of that mp3, that's got to be some kind of record on Gearslutz! The sound is amazing Steve, definitely makes me listen to every word you've got to say about getting good live sound.

I wish there was some mandatory training for all small club owners/FOH guys to go through taught by someone like you. It's a shame when you have a band of talented musicians that are playing their hearts out on stage yet the mix is horrible. I mean seriously all that you could hear was the bass guitar and drums, everything else was drowned out for the most part.

P.S. Hey! how did you host an mp3 that was 13.81 megs? I hate that 6 meg limit I have to deal with when I'm posting mp3s on here.

[Zeppelin]

Part of the solution is constant fader riding.
Even when using compressors this is crucial. Especially dealing with vocals. Sometimes, especially in small clubs, you even have to eq the vocal according to what range the singer sings in order to avoid it sounding boomy in the lower pitched verse vs. sounding hard in the higher choruses. (Or you could use a multiband comp/BSS dpr901). This is often the case when dealing with a PA that's less than top notch.

Also the louder the stage volumes the more important becomes the quality of the PA, to make it sound decent when it's loud without tiring the ear.

Sometimes people from the audience comes over complaining, saying the bass is too loud. And at small spaces like that I may not even have pulled it up on the fader! Like Remoteness said, not everything needs to be amplified.

Also. sometimes musicians want to hear instruments in the wedges that are already so loud fonstage I can't even put them through the PA. I can assure you it doesn't help them sound good.

Of course there are bad FOH guys, but even if it doesn't sound great, be careful blaming. It could be the FOH guy is great, but should have turned the gig down and waited for something better so he didn't risk his reputation. The audiences expects studio quality even in clubs that are as small as the one in the pic. And they don't care if you didn't have budget for the equipment you needed for the job or whatever.

I usually enjoy mixing for younger audiences because they are actually more interested in the music, songs and stage performances than if the mix sounds like the bands cd or not.

You would think doing big stages outdoor for several thousand people is harder, but it's not. It's way easier. There you can actually hear a 6db boost of eq on the bass whereas in a small club you may not even hear if you've muted it or not when you got a bass cab doing 115db on stage.

My point being, the smaller the club and louder the stage volumes, your control over the sound gets limited. Not so limited that you become unable to bring every element through to the audience, but limited enough that you wish you stayed home or had a well paid studio gig that night.

If we're talking jazz and recording with acoustic instruments, I consider that an entirely different matter.

[bcgood]

I hear you Zeppelin, I understand all of your concerns. Most of us that have been doing this for a long time are acutely aware of the myriad of problems that can arise in a situation such as this. There's almost always a solution though, although it may not be easy... A lot of times it's communicating with the band members and finding the right balance between how hot their amps and monitors are and also it's a matter of having the guts to follow your instincts as well as the ears and know how to make the changes that need to occur to make the very best mix that's possible given the circumstances.

P.S. I still have a lot to learn myself. The journey is never over...

[Konketsu]

I'm going to pipe up here because I've mixed these kinds of shows before and I would say that the fault lies with both the band and the FOH equally.

1. The stage volume was probably too high for the venue. If there is an enthusiastic drummer and a couple of over eager guitarists with dimed amps on stage, the bassist will compensate and the vox will scream for more in the monitor mix. Next thing you know your pegging 110 dB on stage and the FOH isn't even pulled up yet. In a 100 person venue this will suck massively.

2. Only mic what's necessary. Do you really need the the OH's in a venue with an eight foot ceiling? If the FOH was really trying to show his stuff, maybe he had gone overboard with micing things. I probably would have kept it down to vox, horn, kik/snr and DIs for the rest.

3. It's been my experience that sometimes I have to tell the band what to do. The choice is theirs. Do you want to sound good? Then turn your bass amp down and switch to brushes and a gentle touch. Sure, it's your tone but it sounds like shit in this venue and you're killing the rest of the band right now. The doors are opening in 20 minutes, so make up your mind. An FOH with less experience probably wouldn't say that.

Number 3 is always a hard one, and bands often don't like to hear stuff like that but in the event that you have to play the heavy and pull it out for the benefit of the show, then by all means do it. Sure, at the time they call you a dick, but at the end of the show you're their best friend for making them sound good.

[AlexK]

I don't know what it's like over there, but here in Cardiff, one of the most popular live-music-orientated-clubs has nothing more than a pair of Mackie SRM450s (awful) and an 6-channel Behringer desk (high & low shelves on each channel, nothing more). The club owner won't spend any money on it because he claims he won't see a return apparently.

Now no matter what you do, in some of these small venues, they just don't have the kit (such as graphic EQs) to really do things properly. Luckily the acoustics in the above venue are really quite good (courtesy of the previous owner) so there aren't any major feedback issues (even though it always sounds goddam awful).

It's not so much a case of 'a bad workman always blames his tools', closer to 'often the workman doesn't have the tools at all'.

[Remoteness]

One thing you can do, especially in a small venue is move the guitar and bass cabinets to the side...

Set them up as side fills instead of the traditional backline set up.
The FOH engineer should have a lot more control over the stage volume, since the sound is not directly shooting straight off the stage.

Another way to handle all the downstage spill is to turn the cabs towards upstage.
This technique doesn't work as well, when there isn't enough good monitoring for the band, but is an option when you have decent monitors.

As long as the band trusts you, you have it made.
This technique really works well for me.

[Kenton]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

If you want to point fingers at something, point them towards the FOH engineer's ears!!!

I mean, yes, the drummer may be playing too hard; yes, the mic may not have been the right one, but the engineer has ears, and they should have been in use when mixing that band.

Like I've said, a number of times...

It's about the ear and not the gear!!!

If only this were true.

Unfortunately it's not.
Both are required.

And then the band has to know how to adjust to a small stage.
Loud band + small stage + inadequate PA = nobody looks good.

Originally Posted by AlexK

It's not so much a case of 'a bad workman always blames his tools', closer to 'often the workman doesn't have the tools at all'.

I have to agree with all of Alex's thoughts.

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

As long as the band trusts you, you have it made.

This is pretty much the bottom line. If a guitar player just wants to show off or loves hearing them self blasting away you will have a problem. Cross firing the amps does work if the player doesn't just turn up to compensate. Sometimes a little more of them in their monitor will help.

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by bcgood

Just to continue the discussion and get more ideas, how do you professionals feel about using gates to help bring about a better overall mix over the FOH speakers in this situation? Especially for use with the drum mics to help cut down on them picking up extraneous noise from guitar and bass amps etc. I'm also thinking a nice gate on the main vocal mic might help.

Gates are used alot on drums. It's usually used to keep noise out of the kick, toms and snare and to cut off the decay on them.

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

One thing you can do, especially in a small venue is move the guitar and bass cabinets to the side...

Set them up as side fills instead of the traditional backline set up.
The FOH engineer should have a lot more control over the stage volume, since the sound is not directly shooting straight off the stage.

Another way to handle all the downstage spill is to turn the cabs towards upstage.
This technique doesn't work as well, when there isn't enough good monitoring for the band, but is an option when you have decent monitors.

As long as the band trusts you, you have it made.
This technique really works well for me.

I worked with a lead guitar player who had a really loud, bright Fender (Twin or Super Reverb... can't remember) in a large, stone-and-glass church every week. He'd set up on the 4' high stage with the amp just behind him, playing past his knees, and proceed to rule the world with his stage volume. I could just about get the vocals up and over, but it was a nightmare. Especially since he usually wanted "more me" in his wedge, and didn't sing.

One night, after about three weeks of this, begging him (to no avail) for less stage level, I had him set the amp on the floor in front of him, angled back, right into his face. He hit a big chord and a lick or two, and pronounced "Man... that sucks." I guess his ears finally understood what his knees (and 500 people) were having to put up with. He dialed back the hard clang in the upper mids, found some tone, TURNED DOWN, and we lived (relatively happy) ever after.

Sometimes "showing" is better than "telling"...

[AV_Dub]

I LOVE that trick with guitarists! Aim it at em and they will see the light quick.. Most bands show up with amps that are way too big for a small venue. 100wt marshall full stacks look killer but sound like crap turned down. Eddie Van Halen yanked some power tubes out and got it right. Too bad power brakes aren't used more these days. (or mesa boogies) Carlos Santana got it right from the beginning, and it payed off big!

Drummers could use thinner cymbals, a big fat pillow in the kick, tape and gause on the snare, a little tape on the bottom of the ride. Then you could mic it all and sound killer.

Bass players could use 4X10 cabs, and a clue about what a thick bass sound does to destroy a mix..

If bands took the steps needed to make their set enjoyable in a small venue.. their shows would stand out from the crowd. And the sound engineers would be famous.

[electraluxx]

Ha! That's the Old Ironsides. I used to play there with my band The Morning Shakes years ago. We were a garage rock band (loud) and NEVER mic-ed anything but the vocals. The space was obviously not designed for live music. It's your typical club. Crappy sound and good energy. Ironically, the singer is wearing a CBGBs (RIP) shirt. CBs had a GREAT sound. It was designed well. The problem with CBs was you had to stand near the middle of the club away from the band to enjoy the sound. Nobody did that.

My experience in local venues has been that the sound person is often the bartender or barback. The set up quick, get a sound and go back to selling drinks. Rarely does a club of this size have a dedicated sound person. Further, it is doubtful musicians are going to change their equipment for the club. They can't afford too. Most of the time they barely have enough money for gas to the next show. I think it is commendable for sound people to try to get good mixes in clubs as it is a pretty tough job.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Kenton

If only this were true.

Unfortunately it's not.
Both are required...<snip>

So, what do you do when you walk into a venue and the gear sucks?
Do you use your ears to make it the best it can be or do you leave it alone?

It doesn't always work in reverse and in small venues you rarely get both.
IMO, if I had to pick between the two, I'd pick an engineer with an ear over the gear everytime.

[bcgood]

This has been a great discussion. I've been enjoying reading everyone's thoughts on the subject.

As far as specific set ups and strategies could someone link or post a diagram or photo of the stage showing exactly how you would set up mix monitors and amps in a small club like this for optimum quality? Kind of like the diagrams you where talking about in the Mix article Steve. That would be helpful I think.

The devils in the details.

[Murton]

In my current job I regulary do gigs in a small capacity venue - 180 people max, yet it's of a fair decent size to warrant JBL Dual 15" tops and Dual 18" subs.

Although I have a lot of FOH power at my disposal, I still have to watch stage level, particularly of guitars as when guitars are too loud of stage the mix will have no guitars in the mix causing a major imbalance around the room. The amount of guitars may be fine up front and maybe lopsided due to stage setup and different levels between players. Then you even it up at FOH position, the mix tends to change depending on stage level as you go further back.

I always tell guitarist, esp. one with MESA's to have their volume just loud enough for them to monitor off, if they need it any louder it can be put in the foldback. Let me do the rest to ensure you get a nice balance out the front.

Too many bands think being the loudest will mean they are the best. In reality, if they are too loud I have to fight to knock things down enough, to stop clipping as the print is the same as the band previous, avoid damage to equipment when the previous mix was at the right level already.

We have limiters setup just at the right level with a faceplate screwed over the system processor to stop anyone messing with the settings.

Tricks I use to reduce stage volume:

Get the guitarists to angle their cabs inwards.

Get the guitarists to put their cabs offstage as side fill.

Always put the bass cap on the inside of guitar cabs.

Opposite pan guitars which have inbalanced levels compared to each other.

Mute guitar mics.

Yell at them using the talkback mic. Or ask nicely for one of them to turn down. Failing that, go side of stage and ask. Failing that, turn it down for them. Failing that, master fader goes down and I explain why its so bad to the audience. That really gets the point across. No one likes being deafened by an arrogant band.

Have a blanket in reserve to chuck over the drum kit. - I've never had to do this but it would be useful in really small rooms.

For things like combo amps, try and grab a guitar amp head case and chuck the amp on top of it to bring up the amp more towards the players level. This will reduce the volume they play at.

In general I bring along a bit of kit to every show I do, kick mic, a couple of Beta 57's, spare leads, DI's, laptop, various adapters, connectors, leads etc.

One good thing to get a good mix will be to go introduce yourself to the band as they are getting their gear towards to go on stage. Find out their requirements like how many vocal mics, any DI sources (Keyboards, acoustic guitar, samplers etc), positions, intro music, foldback requirements etc and then give them your requirements. Any fixed stage positions e.g. bass cab location, location of monitors, appropriate stage levels, how long their set is and ask for any other special requirements they may have or that they may require from you e.g. no effects, effected vocals in the foldback, in ear monitors etc

Really, 9/10's of the problems a small club mixer faces are to do with communication. Make an effort to be approachable and friendly and you will have very little problems unless the band is a complete bunch of cocks. Which happens from time to time.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by bcgood

This has been a great discussion. I've been enjoying reading everyone's thoughts on the subject.

As far as specific set ups and strategies could someone link or post a diagram or photo of the stage showing exactly how you would set up mix monitors and amps in a small club like this for optimum quality? Kind of like the diagrams you where talking about in the Mix article Steve. That would be helpful I think.

The devils in the details.

Here's a thread of a gig we were on.
Check out the guitar rigs and such.

Sighting in St Louis..

You should double click on the photos to get them large enough.

GS had a different file upload situation back in the day, so my large arse photos don't open large enough (these days) unless you open them in their own window.

I hope it helps you see what I'm talking about.

[WalkoftheEarth]

a humble and experience drummer knows how play for the given situation. this goes for the entire band. after that, its all on the sound guy.

[t_chance]

Originally Posted by WalkoftheEarth

a humble and experience drummer knows how play for the given situation. this goes for the entire band. after that, its all on the sound guy.

The last gig that I had with an over testosteroned Baby Huey drummer sans mics told me he could play loud enough that he didn't need them. Midway through the first set I walked back and motioned him to back off a bit, and he just hit them harder. I'm sorry but it's really hard for me to give a damn at that point and time. I thought of telling the band-mates, but decided he would get his due. What would you do?

[ears2thesky]

I mic everything I can on live gigs. The main reason beyond getting stuff loud enough in the room is monitoring. The biggest problem musicians have on stage is hearing themselves. The story of the guitarist at the church is a perfect example. Even if I don't have the mic through the mains I can still pump it up in the monitors. I will tell the guys who are too loud to back off their stage volume and I'll turn them up in their monitor. Drummers included--I'll give them a bunch of kick and snare and presto: they hit lighter.
I know many folks who only mic the singer. You know what? they don't have any control of anything besides the singer, and the guitarist will still turn up too loud because he can't hear himself.
Another problem with smaller venues is the lack of coverage consistency. I'll hear people say they can't hear the vocalist when they're standing directly in front of a roaring guitar rig. I will tell them to move closer to the PA if they want to hear the whole mix. I even installed an additional pair of hung mains angled towards the center of the room next to the PA and run nothing but vocals through them just to overcome this situation at one venue I used to work for.
Getting changeovers done and line checks performed in a 15 minute time span can be difficult, but I do it every night and I'm always on time.

[7rojo7]

that club is a hole
put a mic in the kik and another above the kit MOno OH
put the bass amp and the gtr amp behind the the drummer and let him sort it out (always works, drummer starts throwing sticks at the gtrist when he can't hear himself) happens at rehearsal, band practice
if you get a good mix behind the drummer, you just have to push the vox and everything else will be in the vox mic except when he has his mouth glued to the mic (auotmix, self ducker) doesn't matter much for these venues, you want loud drums and loud vox, that's where the energy is. It's not controllable from a console. I played a lot without monitors, vocal amp instead of a PA, amps behind the drummer in small spaces and they were some of the best sounding gigs I've ever done. Let the players control their volume. if they're good. NP! (Wide open loud as shit drums)
you might only need vocals in the monitor, god knows, with a good drummer and you set the bass up behind it at the right volume (usually that that they agree upon) and raise the gtr amp to ear level, the stage mix will be perfect for a small place, because it's what the musicians agree upon, so that they can hear each other, doesn't change much in a hole.
Roland Space Echo on the vox and you're tight!!!
whatever you don't have for FOH will come through when the singer leaves the mic, rude, but it works, some singers even know how to do this and hype the mix by pointing the mic towards the featured instrument
In bigger venues it may pay to be anal retentive but in holes, just have fun!!!a hole is a hole is a hole
CBGB's was much bigger cubically and needed "heavy" SR, this place is a dive with low ceilings, no need to overblow anything
of course plexi glass will resolve many problems for the drums, but then you have to provide him with some heavy monitor, which has another set of problems (loudspeaker in a closed space with lots of open mics
In the end you have to trust that they're musicians and not just a bunch of ******s, but if they're just a bunch of ******s, all the gear and monitors and grease is not gonna lettem slide anyway.

[bishopthomas]

Originally Posted by t_chance

The last gig that I had with an over testosteroned Baby Huey drummer sans mics told me he could play loud enough that he didn't need them. Midway through the first set I walked back and motioned him to back off a bit, and he just hit them harder. I'm sorry but it's really hard for me to give a damn at that point and time. I thought of telling the band-mates, but decided he would get his due. What would you do?

What would I do? Earplugs...

[Companda]

I know most of this thread is about a week old, but another factor concerning this situation may have been the mix position and the position of the OP. Some people's mix ideals concern just mixing from the desk. Desk position seems rarely to be ideal. I like to move away from the desk as often as possible (which isn't that often) to hear what many people hear as opposed to one, if the mix position allows (ie away from Darren the drunk etc).
If the mix position in this venue had a decent bass null and the OP was in a peak it may also have been the problem. If cymbals were the main problem with the drums, well...continue.