Windband Mic/Band Positioning

[gareth.h.rees]

I have a windband recording coming up this Saturday and was just wondering about the layout of the band and mics.

I'm going to assume I have 12 channels to work with, although I may be able to use a few more.

Layout A shows the layout I was given by the organiser, and its their standard layout. However, Layout B is what I'd have thought would be better, due to keeping the drums and bass instruments central?

The mics I've selected on the layouts are as follows:

Main XY - Oktava MK012, Cardioid > Dav BG2
Flanks - Naiant MSH1, Omni > Dav BG2
Drum XY - Beyer CK703, Cardioid > Presonus Digimax FS
Kick - Sennheiser MD421 > Digimax FS
Flutes - Naiant MSH2, Omni > Digimax FS
Clarinets - Naiant MSH2, Omni > Digimax FS
Omni LDC - Audio Technica AT4050 > Digimax FS
Ribbon - TNC ACM1 (Nady RSM2 type) > Digimax FS

I also have at my disposal:

Oktava MK012 Omni capsules
Oktava MK012 Hypercardioid capsules
Naiant MSH4, Tube Omni (although can ring if knocked - but dubious)
Another TNC ACM1
Beyer M88
Shure SM7
Shure SM57 x2


If anyone has any suggestions on the setup (both band layout and mic positioning/selection) I'd be really grateful. I don't know whether I should suggest changing their 'usual' setup.

The session will be in a medium sized modern church. 35 - 40 musicians apparently.

Oh, and XY + Flanks were suggested in order to keep a tight stereo image, rather than the usual ORTF. MS has also been suggested, but I've never used that before and haven't had chance to really try it out, so would rather give that a miss this time. I'm open to suggestions, though.

About how far apart and back should I be putting the Omni flanks? I was thinking about 3 meters back and apart?

Many thanks,
Gareth

[fifthcircle]

Take a read and see if you still have questions:

Wind Ensemble Setups?

--Ben

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Take a read and see if you still have questions:

--Ben

So it seems you can do a lot with very little with windbands!

I guess I'll stay away from so many spots, maybe just Mains and Flanks, XY Drum (no Kick) and possibly bass DI - never like the sound of bass amps in distant mics..? Will have some omni's ready for clarinets and horns too, but hopefully leave them unplugged :P

I still have two questions:

Should I ask the organiser to re-arrange the band to my suggestion (keeping the drums and bass stuff in the center?)

About how far apart for the flanks? Some threads suggest 2 - 3 meters, one post suggests 30ft, about 9 meters.

Cheers!
Gareth

[matyas]

What's the repertoire? Is this more of a pop/jazz type program? The reason I ask is that wind ensembles typically don't have a drum kit; the drums are played by a group of percussionists, like in an orchestra. Therefore, the bass drum is usually a big orchestral drum played with a large mallet, not a kick drum, and it usually isn't something you'd need to spot mic. On the other hand, if it is a true drum kit, played jazz/pop/rock-style, then maybe you would. (FWIW I run a new music ensmble/chamber orchestra that regularly uses a drumkit, so I'm aware that they do figure in concert hall settings.) Personally, I've done plenty of wind ensemble recordings with nothing more than an ORTF pair, sometimes with flanks, sometimes not. The only tricky thing about wind ensembles is that they have a very large dynamic range, so be sure to set your levels carefully.

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by matyas

What's the repertoire? Is this more of a pop/jazz type program? The reason I ask is that wind ensembles typically don't have a drum kit; the drums are played by a group of percussionists, like in an orchestra. Therefore, the bass drum is usually a big orchestral drum played with a large mallet, not a kick drum, and it usually isn't something you'd need to spot mic. On the other hand, if it is a true drum kit, played jazz/pop/rock-style, then maybe you would. (FWIW I run a new music ensmble/chamber orchestra that regularly uses a drumkit, so I'm aware that they do figure in concert hall settings.) Personally, I've done plenty of wind ensemble recordings with nothing more than an ORTF pair, sometimes with flanks, sometimes not. The only tricky thing about wind ensembles is that they have a very large dynamic range, so be sure to set your levels carefully.

I don't know exactly, but they are more of a modern and 'fun' type group, though I wouldn't go as far as jazz. I think they do a cover of the James Bond theme tune..!

Yep, its a standard drum kit.

[Corran]

That thread should be really helpful. The main question I have is how does the room sound?

Something I've learned after a lot of wind ensemble recordings, is to be closer than you might think (at least that's my taste). Right behind the conductor if possible. I would put the omni caps on the Oktavas and space them between 40 and 60cm, about 12ft above the stage. Then move to taste and balance. Use a pair of outriggers if you need or want. If you feel like it and the room is good, maybe put a pair of your Naiants in the middle of the hall to get the reverb, and use it if you want. A lot depends on the room.

Your original setup is definitely overkill.

I normally use a pair of Schoeps CMC6 with MK2S caps in AB behind the conductor, and then a pair of Earthworks outriggers sometimes, though I will be trying my new MK2 caps as outriggers next recording project. However, last concert I was just doing a reference recording and used just an AKG C422 in M-S hung just behind and above the conductor and it turned out wonderfully (I used the omni pattern for the mid).

[gareth.h.rees]

Originally Posted by Corran

That thread should be really helpful. The main question I have is how does the room sound?

Yeah, after listening to the sound clips posted, it definitely seems like I won't need half as much as I thought. Unfortunately I won't be able to get a chance to hear the room until the setup. I've attached two (horrendously small) images of the hall. They're the only ones I've been able to get.

Originally Posted by Corran

Something I've learned after a lot of wind ensemble recordings, is to be closer than you might think (at least that's my taste). Right behind the conductor if possible.

Will definitely give that a go - I did a recording of a windband at a live concert once and it did sound too distant even though the mics weren't awfully far away.

Originally Posted by Corran

I would put the omni caps on the Oktavas and space them between 40 and 60cm, about 12ft above the stage. Then move to taste and balance. Use a pair of outriggers if you need or want. If you feel like it and the room is good, maybe put a pair of your Naiants in the middle of the hall to get the reverb, and use it if you want. A lot depends on the room.

Omni's rather than ORTF? Maybe I should use the Oktavas in AB and the Beyer's in ORTF and choose which sounds better? Then a pair (or singular?) naiant over the drum kit? I'm a little concerned that as its a standard kit, it won't sound focused enough from main mics?

Originally Posted by Corran

I normally use a pair of Schoeps CMC6 with MK2S caps in AB behind the conductor, and then a pair of Earthworks outriggers sometimes, though I will be trying my new MK2 caps as outriggers next recording project.

Although I've kind of mentioned it, how would you go about having a standard drum kit and standard bass/amp? Use the mains, or spot for focus?

What do you think about the layout of the band? Should I get them to move the kit and bass towards the centre?

Cheers for the advice
Gareth

[Corran]

Are you going to be multi-tracking? If so, of course you can decide on what you like later. Personally, I don't usually spot anything unless absolutely necessary. I mean, what the audience hears is what I'm getting (this is mostly for archival-type recordings). If you are making a CD or something, well then maybe you want a certain sound. I wouldn't worry about the drums/bass being in a certain area - you are thinking about pop music and that doesn't really apply here.

Besides, if you just spot the drums and bass, they will sound like they are the focus of the recording since they will be up-front sounding rather than in the back like they were.

If you are worried about the omnis, by all means run an ORTF pair in addition and choose what you like. I always use omni for a large ensemble like that because ORTF has a bit of bass roll-off at a distance. But if it's a terrible room then by all means, use ORTF. As it looks like a church maybe it will sound good, maybe not. I've heard both.

[gareth.h.rees]

Thanks for all the advice - the session went pretty well, although I didn't get much time to really play about with positioning.

I decided to go for an ORTF pair with the Oktava's, and an AB Naiant pair slightly behind.

I also put a pair of Beyer SDC's over the kit with MD421 on the kick, DI'd bass, AT4050(omni) above and behind the tuba, and a Naiant MSH2(omni) above the front rows.

How it compares to 'professional' work I don't know, but I'm not too displeased. I think I like the definition of the ORTF pair, but the AB pair sound a little more natural, although a bit too distant as well perhaps?

I'd love to get some advice on how to improve/what bits sound good. The client seems pretty happy - I gave him an un-normalised render of the AB pair to listen through to decide if he wants any edits, as we did a couple of takes of a few tracks. I've attached two clips. One of the AB pair and one of the ORTF pair. Both are normalised with no spot mics in either.

I'll upload some pics of the session tomorrow when I get them off my camera.

Look forward to hearing what you think

Cheers
Gareth

[gareth.h.rees]

No comments? Awwww!

Here's some pictures anyway...

[hughesmr]

I'm liking the AB pair much more than the ORTF. Better blend and wind timbre IMO. Now touch up the drum kit adding a bit (just a bit) more presence and I think you'll have a fine result. Nice work.

[Tommy-boy]

I like the AB Blend better as it has better tonal balance.

[NorseHorse]

Image-wise, the AB pair is a wash. There no ensemble in front of you. Just a smattering of sound.

I'd go with the ORTF, add a little reverb, and gently mix in the AB.

Next time, move the ORTF back to where the AB was this time, and I think thing will get a better blend.

[gareth.h.rees]

Cheers for the kind words/advice.

I think that I should have swapped where the pairs were indeed.

Here's a first mix of the beginning of the same track.

I'll upload another tomorrow at some point, but would like some comments on where this one could be improved.

Thanks again
Gareth