Blumlein Close to Stage?

[Tommy-boy]

Are Blumlein techniques best used a little back from a stage or do they work well placed up close? Is M-S with a cardiod center a better choice for up close recording because the center spot is widened?

-Tom

[boojum]

I believe that the MS is a better bet in close. But what are you calling "close"?

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Tommy-boy

Are Blumlein techniques best used a little back from a stage or do they work well placed up close? Is M-S with a cardiod center a better choice for up close recording because the center spot is widened?

-Tom

well, you can't get too close because every instrument in the ensemble has to fit in the included 90deg angle of incident... cant get too far back because youll have issues with the direct/reverberant sound ratio.... so yeah, a bit back....

M/S is better for really close distances, yes, generally.

[Tom McC]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

...well, you can't get too close because every instrument in the ensemble has to fit in the included 90deg angle of incident...

Actually you generally want to ensure that the ensemble fits into the mic array's 'Recording Angle' - which is not the same thnig as the physical Included Angle of the mics. For Blumlein, the Recording Angle is about 75deg.

[Tommy-boy]

Originally Posted by boojum

I believe that the MS is a better bet in close. But what are you calling "close"?

Just in front of the first row in the audience in a middle school auditorium.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by Tommy-boy

Just in front of the first row in the audience in a middle school auditorium.

Yes, MS is better unless you are recording a soloist. Additionally you have the option of tweaking the sound field in post, that is, expanding or shrinking the breadth you mix in from the figure 8. I have gotten good recordings with MS. And it is very quick and easy to set up. It is not the holy grail of techniques but in a situation like this it is very good.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Tom McC

Actually you generally want to ensure that the ensemble fits into the mic array's 'Recording Angle' - which is not the same thnig as the physical Included Angle of the mics. For Blumlein, the Recording Angle is about 75deg.

yeah, yeah, wrong terminology. you pedant you.

[Storyville]

MS can be cool at a distance (not super long, you still want there to be distinct difference between the mid sound and side sound). But you can do a MS config to capture the inside of a piano, or right up at the foot of the stage. Blumleins tend to be a little more demanding of their distance. They generally work a little further back, the exception being as a drum overhead configuration.

[Tommy-boy]

I apologize if this is a stupid question, but apparently I'm slow and am having a hard time getting my head around this.

Conventional wisdom as expressed here is that Blumlein doesn't work well up close, but m-s does. I also understand that Blumlein can be setup in two ways:

1 - 2 fig 8 mics with the "V" in the angle of the mics pointed at the center of the stage, or

2 - in an M-S config using 2 fig 8 mics. This decodes into the exact same result as setting up using method 1 above.


So if we conclude that blumlein is not good upclose, but m-s is, then the ultimate conclusion is that m-s using a cardiod pattern as the center mic works up close, but the same m-s setup using a fig-8 center mic does not work well up close.

I still don't understand why though. Is it because the fig-8 front lobe is too narrow to work up close?

-Tom

[NorseHorse]

Recently, when recording symphonic band, I was not pleased with the front/back balance of my m/s set-up. Too much woodwind. I switched to blumlein m/s and was pleased. Because the mic was situated high, switching the mid to figure-8 helped to attenuate some of the prominent woodwinds in the front row or two. Not saying it's the holy grail, just saying use your ears.

Also, blumlein and m/s blumlein aren't quite the same.