Would you ever record a violin like this?

[jnorman]

lately, the DPA miniature mics, like the 4061, have gotten a lot of attention around here, with folks using them in ONNO setup as a spaced pair for small acoustic ensembles. on the DPA website is an article about a well known pianist who recorded his new CD using nothing but the 4061s, like attached to a brace inside the piano body.

DPA also offers a wide variety of mounts for these little guys to mount directly under the bridge of violins, cellos, etc, or right on the sound board of acoustic guitar, pedal harp, etc, or clip onto any variety of horns, woodwinds, etc.

from what i can tell, artists such as bonnie rideout sound like they are using this kind of instrument-mount setup to record their instruments for CD purposes. and of course, people are always recording their acoustic guitars using extremely close mics - not much different from mounting a minature mic right on the body.

would you ever consider recording a solo violin with a bridge mounted miniature mic? would you consider recording a grand piano with miniature mics mounted inside the piano? seems like lots of people are doing just that.

when you record an acoustic instrument that way, you are basically getting no room sound at all, and must add digital reverb, right? that puts us into the ongoing argument about real room verb vs digiverb - some say there is no substitute for a real room, whereas most pros seem to add digiverb as a matter of course no matter where they record. and obviously many pros with high end verbs like the bricasti can very defnintely "create" a realistic sounding space using digital reverb.

so, if you absolutely would not record an instrument with an attached miniature mic, why not? thoughts? thanks.

[Plush]

I think you will find that the DPA string instrument mounts are for television shows and broadway type shows. Would I record violin or piano with these on the instrument. If I have other mics available certainly the answer would be "no."

These instruments are made to be heard through air and at a distance. The technique you describe does not allow this. Don't be swayed by promo literature from the manufacturer. Someone wrote an article---so what?

There are legitimate uses for these mounts and tv is one of them. When the engineer needs to pick up a concentrated string sound or to pick up string ensemble sound when there is a lot of other sound going on on stage, these mounts can help. YOu're right that reverb is mixed in to make a blend.

Try a near coincident or coincident pick-up on your violin. Don't use spaced omnis because the image will tend to wander and jump channels as you move around.

Each mic to its purpose.

[jnorman]

plush - thanks for the comments. perhaps the most problemmatic instrument i deal with regularly is the flute, and my current method is an ORTF pair of cards about 7 feet out to get a reasonable image of the isntrument.

however, the recommendation for micing a flute from the DPA mic university is the following:
"1. Approx. 5-10 cm (that's like 2-4") away from the instrument, aiming half way the mouth piece and the left hand. Breathing can be a problem in this position so an omni such as 4006 or Compact omni 4051 or 4052 may be an advantage."

i cant imagine micing a flute like that unless i needed some chuffy jazz type sound. i never had any luck getting a decent flute sound with close micing, even at 3 feet out - way too "in your face" for me. so i am at a loss to understand why that is DPA's recommendation.

[boojum]

I would mic an instrument close say for bluegrass if I were also mic'ing with a Blumlein or ORTF for the room sound. I would use the on-instrument mics to only brighten the room sound mics a bit. I would rely on the ORTF or MS for most of the sound.

I am hoping to do a BG group this way in the not too distant future. Five instruments all close or contact mic'ed with a Blumlein and an ORTF or MS. I am, thinking I could draw what I needed from this combo. I am just experimenting to see what works. If I get enough time with this group I may come up with something different but not too different. It will be interesting.

[audio ergo sum]

Originally Posted by jnorman

...
i cant imagine micing a flute like that unless i needed some chuffy jazz type sound. i never had any luck getting a decent flute sound with close micing, even at 3 feet out - way too "in your face" for me. so i am at a loss to understand why that is DPA's recommendation.

Let's not forget that most of their sales go to live and tv projects, us acoustic recordists are a tiny fraction of the market. And for live (avoid feedback loops) and TV (mics not visible) close miking unfortunately too often is the norm.

[The Listener]

Originally Posted by jnorman

so, if you absolutely would not record an instrument with an attached miniature mic, why not? thoughts? thanks.

Because you (I) don't have to... like it was said before - good for live and TV, theatre, etc. work, but why for recording? If that's not the only mic you have - why would you?

Personally I really dislike the sound of miniature condensers (I describe it as "plasticky"), I also tested the DPA4060 and I would never record with it if not really neccessary... to me even the average SDC sound better. To me they are the "TV sound" - meaning both clip on mics on presenters and invisible spot mics... "thinny" and "cutting through" which has its purpose, right...

On the other hand - I can see myself recording a jazz violin with DPA4060 and additional "overhead" SDC or ribbon that would be mixed in for additional depth - to get more definition and "edge" and reduce leakage from other instruments - presuming that everyone records jazz bands more or less "live" in the studio...

[fifthcircle]

I would consider doing a piano that way, but if and only if it was not a classical project. As for strings, in a studio situation, I don't think there is any situation where I'd use a clip-on mic. Even a great quality one like a DPA. For a live jazz or pop album, the rules change for the strings, but that is more a question of survival rather than fidelity.

The sound of an acoustic instrument depends on space. Any microphone positioned that closely will not be a desireable or accurate reproduction of the sound.

The DPA mics are purpose built. Now, lots of people have found great uses beyond the original purpose and that is a reflection of the quality to which DPA builds. That being said, those mounts (string ones in particular) are for very specific uses, none of which are for classical recording (they made the 4091 for that). I use them for classical sound reinforcement on occasion, but that is a very different animal.

Continue to use your ears and your common sense. If you aren't happy with the sound or if it defies your logic, then most likely there is something wrong.

--Ben

[rumleymusic]

i cant imagine micing a flute like that unless i needed some chuffy jazz type sound. i never had any luck getting a decent flute sound with close micing, even at 3 feet out - way too "in your face" for me. so i am at a loss to understand why that is DPA's recommendation.

For ORTF i wouldn't go in that close on flute, but for spaced omnis, I have had good luck at ~4ft out. That seems to be the point at where the extraneous noises that come from the instrument are no worse than anywhere else.

I would not recording with the 4061 on the bridge of a violin for classical. There may be some situations where that much direct sound may be appropriate, (like bluegrass as was mentioned before) in a group setting.

I have miked inside the piano with the DPA magnet mounts. The sound is very good, seems to defy logic. It is very usable for classical, especially in a chamber setting.

[aracu]

Attaching the mini DPA to the instrument is too close for a classical recording, but placing it relatively near the instrument can get good results.